In message

, at 16:36:06 on Fri, 1 Nov 2013, Recliner
remarked:
What is interesting with the ITSO card applications on National Rail
is the insistence on the cards always being used to touch in and out.
I confess, apart from gathering passenger usage stats, I do not see
the reason for mandating card validation for season tickets. If there
are ticket gates then fair enough but ungated stations have those
teensy validators on poles. If the TOCs were offering PAYG or
something similar on their smart tickets then I can completely
understand making validation compulsory.

Is it mind-games like those played by TfL, where they insist *everyone*
to touch in and out, just to make sure that the PAYG people they want to
charge are conditioned to touch in and out. Meanwhile the season ticket
holders are doing an irrelevant dance.

But TfL don't insist that everyone touch in and out, only Oyster users.

sigh this thread is about Oyster cards.

Yes, but not everyone using TfL services uses Oyster.

Irrelevant. This thread is about Oyster cards.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message
, at 15:43:19 on Fri, 1 Nov 2013, Recliner remarked:
What is interesting with the ITSO card applications on National Rail
is the insistence on the cards always being used to touch in and out.
I confess, apart from gathering passenger usage stats, I do not see
the reason for mandating card validation for season tickets. If there
are ticket gates then fair enough but ungated stations have those
teensy validators on poles. If the TOCs were offering PAYG or
something similar on their smart tickets then I can completely
understand making validation compulsory.

Is it mind-games like those played by TfL, where they insist *everyone*
to touch in and out, just to make sure that the PAYG people they want to
charge are conditioned to touch in and out. Meanwhile the season ticket
holders are doing an irrelevant dance.

But TfL don't insist that everyone touch in and out, only Oyster users.

sigh this thread is about Oyster cards.

So what about 60+ Oyster cards? These also don't need to be touched in and
out.

In message

, at 17:06:42 on Fri, 1 Nov 2013, Recliner
remarked:
What is interesting with the ITSO card applications on National Rail
is the insistence on the cards always being used to touch in and out.
I confess, apart from gathering passenger usage stats, I do not see
the reason for mandating card validation for season tickets. If there
are ticket gates then fair enough but ungated stations have those
teensy validators on poles. If the TOCs were offering PAYG or
something similar on their smart tickets then I can completely
understand making validation compulsory.

Is it mind-games like those played by TfL, where they insist *everyone*
to touch in and out, just to make sure that the PAYG people they want to
charge are conditioned to touch in and out. Meanwhile the season ticket
holders are doing an irrelevant dance.

But TfL don't insist that everyone touch in and out, only Oyster users.

sigh this thread is about Oyster cards.

So what about 60+ Oyster cards? These also don't need to be touched in and
out.

They are just a class of season ticket.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message
, at 17:06:42 on Fri, 1 Nov 2013, Recliner remarked:
What is interesting with the ITSO card applications on National Rail
is the insistence on the cards always being used to touch in and out.
I confess, apart from gathering passenger usage stats, I do not see
the reason for mandating card validation for season tickets. If there
are ticket gates then fair enough but ungated stations have those
teensy validators on poles. If the TOCs were offering PAYG or
something similar on their smart tickets then I can completely
understand making validation compulsory.

Is it mind-games like those played by TfL, where they insist *everyone*
to touch in and out, just to make sure that the PAYG people they want to
charge are conditioned to touch in and out. Meanwhile the season ticket
holders are doing an irrelevant dance.

But TfL don't insist that everyone touch in and out, only Oyster users.

sigh this thread is about Oyster cards.

So what about 60+ Oyster cards? These also don't need to be touched in and
out.

They are just a class of season ticket.

What was that you said about TfL insisting that *everyone* touch in and
out? It turns out you meant only Oyster users, and then only the PayG
subset of them. What is the new definition of *everyone*?

Incidentally, when did you become so enthusiastic about policing thread
divergence?

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 22:14:40 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message

, at 17:06:42 on Fri, 1 Nov 2013, Recliner
remarked:

So what about 60+ Oyster cards? These also don't need to be touched in and
out.

They are just a class of season ticket.

Going into extreme pedantry mode they are not a season ticket at all.
They are a form of pass or permit which are different products so far
as the Oyster system is concerned. The cards certainly have no
concept of a "Purse" hence why PAYG cannot be added to them unlike a
normal issue Oyster card.

I understand why you're making the comparison but a ticket is
something that is purchased whereas the 60+ Card is based on
entitlement for which no cash changes hands (other than possibly an
application fee for the first card - I haven't checked this).

Yup, £10.

If you are challenged as to whether you touched-in, refer them to the bus CCTV, as one of the cameras (if functioning correctly) will have recorded your attempt to touch-in.

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 15:18:44 +0000, Cliff Frisby
wrote:

Richard wrote:

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 00:32:06 +0000, Cliff Frisby
wrote:

I don't know whether I am mis-remembering something, but I thought it was
obligatory for a bus operator to issue paper proof that you have paid for
the journey you are making, assuming you don't already have it. The
purpose, I always assumed, was that it protected the innocent passenger
against false accusations of fare-dodging.
[...]
A piece of plastic with the information buried in an embedded chip and/or
a remote computer under the sole control of the operator doesn't provide
any sort of objective evidence, as far as I can see.

I would argue that the proof of payment is still there, it's just in
the card and can be read with appropriate equipment.

Well, I think that really misses the point. Proof of payment does not exist
if the ability to reveal it depends on the integrity of the party demanding
the proof.

I really don't think it does. As I work in IT, and have done a small
amount of work on Oyster itself (although that got nowhere) I'd be
quite happy arguing my case with any revenue inspector. I can quite
understand that others wouldn't be so keen -- maybe that's you, or
maybe you have more of an ideological objection to this, which I also
respect.

It's as though I bought something in a shop and, when asking for my receipt
to ensure there are no problem passing the security guard on the exit, am
told I don't need one because the shop has all the evidence it needs to
satisfy itself that I paid for the goods.

There's also a parallel with the move from signing credit card
authorisations to chip-and-pin.

Another parallel might be getting cash from a machine -- do you always
request a receipt? Or if the machine has a problem and doesn't give
you any cash but there's no message to indicate why... has your
account been debited?

We are being coerced into having to trust potential adversaries.

I like the pithiness of that statement, it brings to mind recent
revelations about how our governments and others are spying on us
routinely... I think it just depends upon where you place a transport
operator/authority on that "adversary" scale, and I don't, really.

Richard.

In message

, at 17:35:32 on Fri, 1 Nov 2013, Recliner
remarked:
Is it mind-games like those played by TfL, where they insist *everyone*
to touch in and out, just to make sure that the PAYG people they want to
charge are conditioned to touch in and out. Meanwhile the season ticket
holders are doing an irrelevant dance.

But TfL don't insist that everyone touch in and out, only Oyster users.

sigh this thread is about Oyster cards.

So what about 60+ Oyster cards? These also don't need to be touched in and
out.

They are just a class of season ticket.

What was that you said about TfL insisting that *everyone* touch in and
out?

True of Oyster cards, which is what the thread is about.

It turns out you meant only Oyster users,

Which is what the thread is about.

and then only the PayG subset of them.

No, the whole point is they try to insist *all* Oyster users touch in
and out, even the season ticket holders where it doesn't make any
difference (unless of course that season ticket holder later exits at a
station outside the validity of his season).

--
Roland Perry

In message , at 01:23:54 on
Sat, 2 Nov 2013, Paul Corfield remarked:

So what about 60+ Oyster cards? These also don't need to be touched in and
out.

They are just a class of season ticket.

Going into extreme pedantry mode they are not a season ticket at all.

Yes they are. It's an "all London" [or whatever] free-of-charge season
ticket. It's certainly not PAYG.

They are a form of pass or permit which are different products so far
as the Oyster system is concerned.

In what way are they treated differently by the gates?

The cards certainly have no concept of a "Purse" hence why PAYG cannot
be added to them unlike a normal issue Oyster card.

Although adding that functionality would be useful, if it was ever going
to be usable. Does the Freedom Card allow free use of the dangleway, for
example, or is there an extra fee payable.

I understand why you're making the comparison but a ticket is
something that is purchased whereas the 60+ Card is based on
entitlement for which no cash changes hands (other than possibly an
application fee for the first card - I haven't checked this).

No, tickets are issued. Who paid and why is completely separate from the
way such tickets are used in the field.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 11:10:38 on
Sat, 2 Nov 2013, Richard remarked:
We are being coerced into having to trust potential adversaries.

I like the pithiness of that statement, it brings to mind recent
revelations about how our governments and others are spying on us
routinely... I think it just depends upon where you place a transport
operator/authority on that "adversary" scale, and I don't, really.

You've never encountered a GNER gripper; I can tell.

I once spent most of the trip from Peterborough to London arguing the
toss with several intransigent GNER staff over whether my ticket
qualified me for a free cup of coffee. It did, but they only conceded
after a protracted fight.

Compare and contrast to the ECML's current incumbent where such
arguments are almost guaranteed when the "free" First Class catering is
only available to people whose trip is over 70 minutes, and some
schedules from Grantham to London are more than 70 minutes and some are
less. (And they aren't brave enough to come out and say that Grantham is
either "always in" or "always out", regardless of how many milliseconds
either side of the 70 minutes they are scheduled for).
--
Roland Perry