On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:46:49 -0600
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
As I suspected, your lack of communications skills stopped you from being
promoted into management. No wonder you're always angry and frustrated.

A moot point given I've been a self employed contractor for years and in most
jobs I've done I probably took home more after tax than most of the management.
But if job titles are your willy waving thing I was a director of my own
company for a long time until I decided umbrellas were less hassle.

LOL ) Powerpoint eh? Oh dear, you poor poor deluded man if you think that
program in any way aids communication other than for the simplest dumbed
down comncepts.

That's what's needed at executive level. Unfortunately, you'll probably

Ooooh, get you, an "executive"! Were you a results driven thought leader in the
loop who got the Big Picture and scoped out action points? Watch out Gordon
Gecko! Did you get scented soap in the toilets and a secretary in a short skirt
to screw after hours?

never find out. I doubt that someone with your exquisite manners would ever
be allowed into a board room, even as a guest.

Thanks, but there are less soul destroying ways to earn 6 figures than ending
up there.

Perhaps you wouldn't talk to much drivel if you actually did a real job.

Fortunately, I made more than enough money to be able to retire early when
I got bored with work. I wouldn't have been able to do that had I not been
able to communicate effectively.

Oddly I don't get bored with my work. But then I don't have to **** about
with powerpoint and talk ******** all day - I actually do something useful
and productive.

Now , isn't it time you went and drilled down to touch base with the organic
growth figures of the best-of-breed marrows in your greenhouse old man?

--
Spud

On 2013-12-13, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
snip
I'm one of those perhaps in your mind odd people who view computer science
and engineering as a profession akin to medicine or law, not some bottom
of the ladder job thyats merely a starting point to getting a space in
the directors carpark.

As I suspected, your lack of communications skills stopped you from being
promoted into management. No wonder you're always angry and frustrated.
Just think how much more successful you could have been in your career had
you not skipped those English lessons.

Do you mean that, or are you just attacking? Some people don't want to
be managers, and deliberately stay away from any such opportunities,
without being made angry and frustrated by what are, after all, their
own deliberate and reasoned choices. Being a manager is not equivalent
to being successful.

Eric
--
ms fnd in a lbry

Eric wrote:
On 2013-12-13, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
snip
I'm one of those perhaps in your mind odd people who view computer science
and engineering as a profession akin to medicine or law, not some bottom
of the ladder job thyats merely a starting point to getting a space in
the directors carpark.

As I suspected, your lack of communications skills stopped you from being
promoted into management. No wonder you're always angry and frustrated.
Just think how much more successful you could have been in your career had
you not skipped those English lessons.

Do you mean that, or are you just attacking? Some people don't want to
be managers, and deliberately stay away from any such opportunities,
without being made angry and frustrated by what are, after all, their
own deliberate and reasoned choices. Being a manager is not equivalent
to being successful.

That's an interesting point, but unfortunately is usually true. In most
technical fields, you're at your most productive from your mid 20s to late
30s; after that, someone else will be a sharper programmer, etc. I was
confronted with this at the age of 27 when I was offered my first
management job -- I was reluctant to take it, as I reckoned I was doing
better and earning more as a non-manager. But it was explained to me that
I'd be overtaken by my peer group if I refused the promotion (and drop in
salary), so I reluctantly accepted.

However, I still did techie stuff whenever I could, and didn't regret my
move into management. By my early 40s I was a director, enjoying commuting
by air-conditioned BMW 535i (my older colleagues preferred Jaguars), rather
than the sweaty Piccadilly line. And, yes, I had a reserved spot in the
directors' car park by the age of 41. I wouldn't have wanted to still be a
techie, working for a younger manager, and competing with younger, sharper,
more recently qualified colleagues. I was much happier commissioning and
owning projects, rather than just doing what I was told.

My technical background meant that the programmers working on my projects
couldn't pull the wool over my eyes as easily as they might have done, but
most of my colleagues also had numerate degrees, as did the CEO. So I'm
happy to see techies progressing into senior management, where they will
probably be more effective than if they stayed as technicians. And they
will understand the technology much better than an arts grad.

Although I never needed to do any finite elements analysis after I got my
master's, I did use some of the same mathematical techniques much later in
financial models, even as a manager. Being a manager didn't stop me from
writing and selling complex North Sea oil tax models, so I got the best of
both worlds.

I think Spud/Boltar is showing all the signs of hating having to work for
younger, better-paid managers (or customers) he doesn't respect. The
feeling is probably mutual. He probably now has to compete with younger,
sharper techie colleagues/competitors who also perform better than him, and
will probably soon overtake him. It must be very frustrating for him, and
It's hardly surprising that, as compensation, he feels the need to be so
obnoxious in an anonymous forum like this. He probably thinks the same of
his bosses, but can't say so.

wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:46:49 -0600
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
As I suspected, your lack of communications skills stopped you from being
promoted into management. No wonder you're always angry and frustrated.

A moot point given I've been a self employed contractor for years and in most
jobs I've done I probably took home more after tax than most of the management.
But if job titles are your willy waving thing I was a director of my own
company for a long time until I decided umbrellas were less hassle.

Yup, I was self employed for many years, too. Still travelled business
class kept driving very nice cars, though., and never needed to play
management buzzword bingo But did have to learn more accounting than I
enjoyed.


Fortunately, I made more than enough money to be able to retire early when
I got bored with work. I wouldn't have been able to do that had I not been
able to communicate effectively.

Oddly I don't get bored with my work. But then I don't have to **** about
with powerpoint and talk ******** all day - I actually do something useful
and productive.

Programming? At your age? How thrilling!


Now , isn't it time you went and drilled down to touch base with the organic
growth figures of the best-of-breed marrows in your greenhouse old man?

You seem to have learned an awful lot of management ******** -- you've used
more in this thread than I did in my whole career.

On 2013-12-13, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
snip
Oddly I don't get bored with my work. But then I don't have to **** about
with powerpoint and talk ******** all day - I actually do something useful
and productive.

Programming? At your age? How thrilling!

Thrilling? Yes, it can be. At any age. Actually that line says more
about your personality than about anything else.

Eric
--
ms fnd in a lbry

Eric wrote:
On 2013-12-13, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
snip
Oddly I don't get bored with my work. But then I don't have to **** about
with powerpoint and talk ******** all day - I actually do something useful
and productive.

Programming? At your age? How thrilling!

Thrilling? Yes, it can be. At any age. Actually that line says more
about your personality than about anything else.

Yes, perhaps. I moved on from programming a long time ago. For me, it was
never more than a means to an end, and I was happy to switch to code-free
environments once they could do what I wanted. I certainly didn't want to
make my living from it, and never did, despite writing programs that could
tie up the then world's largest computer for 20 minutes when I was doing my
thesis.

The last 3GL code I wrote was probably around 30 years ago (very much as a
part-time activity), and 4GL 15+ years ago. Even programming fancy Excel
formulas or macros doesn't turn me on any more. Once I knew I could do it,
I didn't get any thrills from doing it year after year. There were new
challenges to turn me on, and programming seemed like an activity best
reserved for younger, cheaper people. I know what code can do, but it
doesn't have to be me doing it, any more than I would want to wash my car
myself.

I do appreciate that some people enjoy washing their own cars, and others
continue to enjoy programming. But there are better ways to make a living
for those who can.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 14:41:02 -0600
Recliner wrote:
That's an interesting point, but unfortunately is usually true. In most
technical fields, you're at your most productive from your mid 20s to late
30s; after that, someone else will be a sharper programmer, etc. I was

Rubbish. There's more to programming than just how quick off the mark you
are. Over the years you gather a large mental box of tricks and knowledge of
common gotchas and solutions which means you're generally more prepared for
most eventualities than someone who's only been in the game a few years.

Sadly you seem to be the type who thinks its just a job rather than a
profession. I can't see many people asking a surgeon in his 40s why he's still
working at the front line rather than sitting in an office playing with
powerpoint.

confronted with this at the age of 27 when I was offered my first
management job -- I was reluctant to take it, as I reckoned I was doing
better and earning more as a non-manager. But it was explained to me that
I'd be overtaken by my peer group if I refused the promotion (and drop in
salary), so I reluctantly accepted.

You can move to other companies you know.

move into management. By my early 40s I was a director, enjoying commuting
by air-conditioned BMW 535i (my older colleagues preferred Jaguars), rather

Is a 535 your idea of having "made it"? Sad.

directors' car park by the age of 41. I wouldn't have wanted to still be a
techie, working for a younger manager, and competing with younger, sharper,
more recently qualified colleagues. I was much happier commissioning and
owning projects, rather than just doing what I was told.

Translation: I wasn't a very good techie so I jumped into the first career
lifeboat than drifted past because I knew I wouldn't get a job elsewhere.

Yeah , i know your type.

I think Spud/Boltar is showing all the signs of hating having to work for
younger, better-paid managers (or customers) he doesn't respect. The

Someones age doesn't bother me. I'd far sooner work for a 25 year old
manager who's got a clue than some idiot in his 50s or 60s like you who
clearly doesn't.

will probably soon overtake him. It must be very frustrating for him, and
It's hardly surprising that, as compensation, he feels the need to be so
obnoxious in an anonymous forum like this. He probably thinks the same of
his bosses, but can't say so.

Can't say no? Sorry, which bit of "self employed" are you having trouble
understanding or is that beyond the limit of your comprehension too?

--
Spud

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:36:10 -0600
Recliner wrote:
Eric wrote:
Thrilling? Yes, it can be. At any age. Actually that line says more
about your personality than about anything else.

Yes, perhaps. I moved on from programming a long time ago. For me, it was
never more than a means to an end, and I was happy to switch to code-free

And that says even more about you - ie no good at programming, should never
have gone into it in the first place and you didn't have the balls to look
elsewhere for a job - you took the easy option. You'd have probably been happy
as a retail manager in a tesco or something similar.

environments once they could do what I wanted. I certainly didn't want to
make my living from it, and never did, despite writing programs that could
tie up the then world's largest computer for 20 minutes when I was doing my
thesis.

This is priceless )

Anyone could tie up a single threaded computer for all eternity just by
sticking it in an endless loop you dimwit. 20 mins, FFS ...

The last 3GL code I wrote was probably around 30 years ago (very much as a
part-time activity), and 4GL 15+ years ago. Even programming fancy Excel
formulas or macros doesn't turn me on any more. Once I knew I could do it,

I hate to break the news to you, but writing Excel macros is only "programming"
if you're a complete beginner. I expect you think writing HTML is programming
too hmm?

I didn't get any thrills from doing it year after year. There were new
challenges to turn me on, and programming seemed like an activity best
reserved for younger, cheaper people. I know what code can do, but it
doesn't have to be me doing it, any more than I would want to wash my car
myself.

Obviously you have zero imagination to boot.


I do appreciate that some people enjoy washing their own cars, and others
continue to enjoy programming. But there are better ways to make a living
for those who can.

Poor analogy. The programmer/engineer is the person who built the car, the
one washing it is the person who uses it on a daily basis. Eg , the pointy
haired manager who uses Powerpoint for example.

Face it - you have no clue about what you're talking about, you were a failure
as a progammer who jumped before he was pushed and you could be Exhibit A
from the Dilbert Principle.

Oh, but your spellings ok. Well hallelujah, watch the company share price rise!

--
Spud

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Eric wrote:
On 2013-12-13, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
snip
Oddly I don't get bored with my work. But then I don't have to ****
about
with powerpoint and talk ******** all day - I actually do something
useful
and productive.

Programming? At your age? How thrilling!

Thrilling? Yes, it can be. At any age. Actually that line says more
about your personality than about anything else.

Yes, perhaps. I moved on from programming a long time ago.

But what do you move onto?

IME one in a 1000 of the available opportunities for advancement for
senior/principle engineers are "technical lead" positions. The rest are in
project management or line management - aka sitting at a desk pushing bits
of paper around, answering the phone from the client and attending meetings
all day.

and you think that is preferable, I certainly don't

tim

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 12:52:28 GMT, d wrote:

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:36:10 -0600
Recliner wrote:
Eric wrote:
Thrilling? Yes, it can be. At any age. Actually that line says more
about your personality than about anything else.

Yes, perhaps. I moved on from programming a long time ago. For me, it was
never more than a means to an end, and I was happy to switch to code-free

And that says even more about you - ie no good at programming, should never
have gone into it in the first place and you didn't have the balls to look
elsewhere for a job - you took the easy option. You'd have probably been happy
as a retail manager in a tesco or something similar.

If you could read better than you write, you'd also have noticed that
I never was a programmer. I occasionally wrote code as needed in other
jobs (I actually spent more time specifying languages than using
them). My degrees were in engineering, not programming, so writing
code was always a means to the end. Programmers were people I
employed. My coding skills were OK, but I hope the pros were much
better.


environments once they could do what I wanted. I certainly didn't want to
make my living from it, and never did, despite writing programs that could
tie up the then world's largest computer for 20 minutes when I was doing my
thesis.

This is priceless )

Anyone could tie up a single threaded computer for all eternity just by
sticking it in an endless loop you dimwit. 20 mins, FFS ...

Oh dear. Running large mesh finite element programs is computationally
intensive, especially if it's iteratively simulating thermal creep.
But you probably only know about the other sort of creep.


The last 3GL code I wrote was probably around 30 years ago (very much as a
part-time activity), and 4GL 15+ years ago. Even programming fancy Excel
formulas or macros doesn't turn me on any more. Once I knew I could do it,

I hate to break the news to you, but writing Excel macros is only "programming"
if you're a complete beginner. I expect you think writing HTML is programming
too hmm?

As I said, even basic programming like Excel macros, let alone the
hard-core stuff, bores me to tears.


I didn't get any thrills from doing it year after year. There were new
challenges to turn me on, and programming seemed like an activity best
reserved for younger, cheaper people. I know what code can do, but it
doesn't have to be me doing it, any more than I would want to wash my car
myself.

Obviously you have zero imagination to boot.


I do appreciate that some people enjoy washing their own cars, and others
continue to enjoy programming. But there are better ways to make a living
for those who can.

Poor analogy. The programmer/engineer is the person who built the car, the
one washing it is the person who uses it on a daily basis. Eg , the pointy
haired manager who uses Powerpoint for example.

I preferred being the person who commissioned the project to build the
car, hiring cheaper, junior grunts to actually do the stress analysis.
Unfortunately, a few were like you, but most were bright and willing.


Face it - you have no clue about what you're talking about, you were a failure
as a progammer who jumped before he was pushed and you could be Exhibit A
from the Dilbert Principle.

I wasn't ever a programmer, as I keep pointing out. It might have been
your highest aspiration; it was never mine. I just wrote code as
needed, and preferably not very often, and certainly not once I could
hire others to do it.