On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 12:33:46 +0000 (UTC),
d wrote:

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 14:41:02 -0600
Recliner wrote:
That's an interesting point, but unfortunately is usually true. In most
technical fields, you're at your most productive from your mid 20s to late
30s; after that, someone else will be a sharper programmer, etc. I was

Rubbish. There's more to programming than just how quick off the mark you
are. Over the years you gather a large mental box of tricks and knowledge of
common gotchas and solutions which means you're generally more prepared for
most eventualities than someone who's only been in the game a few years.

Sadly you seem to be the type who thinks its just a job rather than a
profession. I can't see many people asking a surgeon in his 40s why he's still
working at the front line rather than sitting in an office playing with
powerpoint.

confronted with this at the age of 27 when I was offered my first
management job -- I was reluctant to take it, as I reckoned I was doing
better and earning more as a non-manager. But it was explained to me that
I'd be overtaken by my peer group if I refused the promotion (and drop in
salary), so I reluctantly accepted.

You can move to other companies you know.

I was happy in the company, and BTW, I was promoted from being a
software sales exec to sales manager, managing the sales people and
techies who had to support the customers. I made a lot more in
commission as a techie sales exec than as a techie sales manager, and
far more than anyone doing an actual techie job.


move into management. By my early 40s I was a director, enjoying commuting
by air-conditioned BMW 535i (my older colleagues preferred Jaguars), rather

Is a 535 your idea of having "made it"? Sad.

Yes, I was pretty pleased to have one built for me, to my exact spec,
in my 30s. It was a lot better than the Audi, Alfa, etc that I'd
previously chosen. And in those days, there were no tax penalties.


directors' car park by the age of 41. I wouldn't have wanted to still be a
techie, working for a younger manager, and competing with younger, sharper,
more recently qualified colleagues. I was much happier commissioning and
owning projects, rather than just doing what I was told.

Translation: I wasn't a very good techie so I jumped into the first career
lifeboat than drifted past because I knew I wouldn't get a job elsewhere.

Yeah , i know your type.

Yup, someone who wanted to have a career. How you must envy them.


I think Spud/Boltar is showing all the signs of hating having to work for
younger, better-paid managers (or customers) he doesn't respect. The

Someones age doesn't bother me. I'd far sooner work for a 25 year old
manager who's got a clue than some idiot in his 50s or 60s like you who
clearly doesn't.

Do you get to choose?


will probably soon overtake him. It must be very frustrating for him, and
It's hardly surprising that, as compensation, he feels the need to be so
obnoxious in an anonymous forum like this. He probably thinks the same of
his bosses, but can't say so.

Can't say no? Sorry, which bit of "self employed" are you having trouble
understanding or is that beyond the limit of your comprehension too?

So do you tell your clients what you really think of them?

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:57:39 +0100, "tim......"
wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Eric wrote:
On 2013-12-13, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
snip
Oddly I don't get bored with my work. But then I don't have to ****
about
with powerpoint and talk ******** all day - I actually do something
useful
and productive.

Programming? At your age? How thrilling!

Thrilling? Yes, it can be. At any age. Actually that line says more
about your personality than about anything else.

Yes, perhaps. I moved on from programming a long time ago.

But what do you move onto?

IME one in a 1000 of the available opportunities for advancement for
senior/principle engineers are "technical lead" positions. The rest are in
project management or line management - aka sitting at a desk pushing bits
of paper around, answering the phone from the client and attending meetings
all day.

and you think that is preferable, I certainly don't

I moved into sales, then marketing, then general management. being
technical, I was the one sales guy who never needed a bag carrier, as
I could demonstrate everything I sold, and didn't sell things that
wouldn't do the job for the customer.

I later got to invent and specify new products, which teams of techies
then built. It was much more fun (and lucrative) than just being one
of those techies.

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 14:34:27 +0000
Recliner wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 12:52:28 GMT, d wrote:
Anyone could tie up a single threaded computer for all eternity just by
sticking it in an endless loop you dimwit. 20 mins, FFS ...

Oh dear. Running large mesh finite element programs is computationally
intensive, especially if it's iteratively simulating thermal creep.
But you probably only know about the other sort of creep.

Running a prime number generator is computationally intensive and a simple
one of those is about 3 lines of C. Whats your point exactly? That my program
took X minutes on computer Y so it must have been impressive? Err, no, sorry.

I hate to break the news to you, but writing Excel macros is only
"programming"
if you're a complete beginner. I expect you think writing HTML is programming
too hmm?

As I said, even basic programming like Excel macros, let alone the
hard-core stuff, bores me to tears.

I doubt you would know where to start if someone told you to go off and write
some hard-core stuff. But as you say , you got other people to do the hard
work while you just shuffled paperclips around.

I wasn't ever a programmer, as I keep pointing out. It might have been
your highest aspiration; it was never mine. I just wrote code as

You can't really aspire to something you're clearly no good at.

I was happy in the company, and BTW, I was promoted from being a
software sales exec to sales manager, managing the sales people and
techies who had to support the customers. I made a lot more in
commission as a techie sales exec than as a techie sales manager, and
far more than anyone doing an actual techie job.

Oh dear, its so sad that you genuinely think that making it to the position
of a sales rep is something to boast about. You'd sooner do a job whose most
famous exponent is David Brent instead of one represented by people such as
Alan Turing , Ada Lovelace, Steve Wozniak and so on. I rest my case.

Yes, I was pretty pleased to have one built for me, to my exact spec,
in my 30s. It was a lot better than the Audi, Alfa, etc that I'd
previously chosen. And in those days, there were no tax penalties.

So in other words it wasn't even your own car, it was a company car. But lets
not forget it had an 'i' on the end - 'i' for "important", right? )

So do you tell your clients what you really think of them?

I have done in the past when I've no intention of ever going back there.

--
Spud

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:45:35 GMT, wrote:

So has Spultar now turned into Neil (perhaps your real name)? The
funny thing is that you actually remind me of a Neil who once worked
for me, who had a very similar personality. You can imagine just how
popular he was with his colleagues.

Anyway, this thread has been very illuminating in other ways, too. We
can all be very pleased for you, having achieved your life's ambition
to be a contract programmer, despite the obvious gaps in your
education. Few other people are lucky enough to achieve all of their
career goals (I know I didn't). It must be this deep contentment with
your career that makes you such a placid and pleasant person, so
willing to see the best in all that surrounds you.

On 2013-12-15, Recliner wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:45:35 GMT, wrote:

So has Spultar now turned into Neil (perhaps your real name)?

Somebody uses that email address when posting to uk.transport. I don't
actually read the group so I have no idea whether it's the same person
or not. Anyone who uses different addresses for different purposes is
likely to accidentally use the wrong one from time to time.

The funny thing is that you actually remind me of a Neil who once worked
for me, who had a very similar personality. You can imagine just how
popular he was with his colleagues.

Anyway, this thread has been very illuminating in other ways, too. We
can all be very pleased for you, having achieved your life's ambition
to be a contract programmer, despite the obvious gaps in your
education. Few other people are lucky enough to achieve all of their
career goals (I know I didn't). It must be this deep contentment with
your career that makes you such a placid and pleasant person, so
willing to see the best in all that surrounds you.

"contract programmer" (or the similar but different "independent IT
consultant") is not a career goal, it's a way of getting quite a good
income doing work that, at worst, you are quite comfortable with and,
at best, find very enjoyable. The downsides are a bit of uncertainty
and the really horrible management types you sometimes have to deal with
(but only sometimes).

It's strange how those who have career goals (and/or ambition) often
fail to understand, and look down on, those who don't. Sorry, all they
are is different from you, it's allowed.

Eric
--
ms fnd in a lbry

On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:55:05 +0000
Recliner wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:45:35 GMT, wrote:
Anyway, this thread has been very illuminating in other ways, too. We
can all be very pleased for you, having achieved your life's ambition
to be a contract programmer, despite the obvious gaps in your
education. Few other people are lucky enough to achieve all of their
career goals (I know I didn't). It must be this deep contentment with
your career that makes you such a placid and pleasant person, so
willing to see the best in all that surrounds you.

Well quite. Glad we agree on something.

--
Spud

On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 11:35:37 +0000
Eric wrote:
On 2013-12-15, Recliner wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:45:35 GMT, wrote:

So has Spultar now turned into Neil (perhaps your real name)?

Somebody uses that email address when posting to uk.transport. I don't
actually read the group so I have no idea whether it's the same person
or not. Anyone who uses different addresses for different purposes is
likely to accidentally use the wrong one from time to time.

I mix and match id's and sometimes I use the wrong one. Its hardly for
secrecy, its simply to prevent bots amalgamating all my posts into one lump
for someone to pore over one day.

"contract programmer" (or the similar but different "independent IT
consultant") is not a career goal, it's a way of getting quite a good
income doing work that, at worst, you are quite comfortable with and,
at best, find very enjoyable. The downsides are a bit of uncertainty
and the really horrible management types you sometimes have to deal with
(but only sometimes).

That pretty much sums it up. You can't really ask for much more careerwise
that doing a job you quite like, being paid hansomly for it and not having
to worry too much about day to day company politics.

It's strange how those who have career goals (and/or ambition) often
fail to understand, and look down on, those who don't. Sorry, all they
are is different from you, it's allowed.

The ambitious types generally don't give a monkeys what industry they're in,
all they care about is being top dog to satisfy their own egos. Which means
they're exactly the wrong sort of person to be in charge.

--
Spud

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:21:10 +0000 (UTC),
d wrote:

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:56:36 -0600
wrote:
In article ,
(Peter Masson) wrote:

Spud wrote

Well, I was being a bit tongue in cheek. But I suspect if the line had
been run by the underground since its inception rather than BR until the
90s then probably a single line connection would have been built by now
to transfer stock instead of having the faff of craning them in and out
when any heavy overhauls are required.

Until the 1990s, when the site was required for building Waterloo
International, access to the W&C was via a hoist in Waterloo Yard.
W&C stock could be brought to the surface using the hoist, and AIUI
worked under its own power to Wimbledon Depot for overhaul. The W&C
originally had its own power station, and coal trucks used the hoist
to provide power. In 1948 the lift descended while some trucks were
being shunted on to it, and 4 coal trucks and a loco landed at the
bottom of the shaft.

Cars had to have their coupling hoses removed to use the hoist because it
was a bit short.

Why arn't I surprised. Everything in this country has to be just that bit
too small whether its houses, trains or roads. It must be something in the
subconcious.

Agreed Boltar, the size of UK houses is particularly infuriating. In
the 1980s I sold a comfortable ranch in the Commonwealth of Kentucky.
In southern England I could afford an end terrace.

There are bedrooms in England in which there is insufficient room for
a bed. The estate agent's explanation is that there is room for a
baby's crib. So, good for a year or so!

Now times are better, and the nest is empty, so in the UK I can trade
number of rooms for size of rooms.
--

http://www.991fmtalk.com/ The DMZ in Reno

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 15:56:34 GMT, d wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:20:32 -0600
Recliner wrote:
Being literate, I might remind you of a "snotty arts type", but my degrees
were in engineering, and you won't ever find me quoting famous authors or
sound bites written by others (I preferred my own). Once I was promoted

If you prefer your own it must be pretty quiet in your office since you don't
appear to have any.

into senior management, it was the ability to write and present ideas and

I've generally found in my career that the sort of people who climb the
greasy pole are the ones not very good at actually doing the job they were
initially employed to do but had mastered the art of bull****ting.

I'm one of those perhaps in your mind odd people who view computer science and
engineering as a profession akin to medicine or law, not some bottom of the
ladder job thyats merely a starting point to getting a space in the directors
carpark.

calculator, FORTRAN compiler or Excel, that mattered. PowerPoint was more
important, and knowing what to present.

LOL ) Powerpoint eh? Oh dear, you poor poor deluded man if you think that
program in any way aids communication other than for the simplest dumbed
down comncepts.

Perhaps you wouldn't always be so angry and frustrated if you had gained
the ability to communicate effectively using your mother tongue?

Perhaps you wouldn't talk to much drivel if you actually did a real job.
Still, no doubt you have fun leveraging win-win enterprise visions in a
downsized holistic stakeholder scenario while running ideas up the flagpole eh?
I'm sure you also love to imagine you can "think outside the box", but you
probably wouldn't even be able to open the flap.

Boltar, when I am in London, I want to buy you a beer. You take down
the u.t.l. narcissist so effectively. You are a bona fide hero.
--

http://www.991fmtalk.com/ The DMZ in Reno

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 17:20:13 +0000 (UTC),
d wrote:

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:46:49 -0600
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
As I suspected, your lack of communications skills stopped you from being
promoted into management. No wonder you're always angry and frustrated.

A moot point given I've been a self employed contractor for years and in most
jobs I've done I probably took home more after tax than most of the management.
But if job titles are your willy waving thing I was a director of my own
company for a long time until I decided umbrellas were less hassle.

My son and I have come to the same conclusion. In the UK it is better
to utilize an umbrella than faff around with one's own company. It is
different in those US.

LOL ) Powerpoint eh? Oh dear, you poor poor deluded man if you think that
program in any way aids communication other than for the simplest dumbed
down comncepts.

That's what's needed at executive level. Unfortunately, you'll probably

Ooooh, get you, an "executive"! Were you a results driven thought leader in the
loop who got the Big Picture and scoped out action points? Watch out Gordon
Gecko! Did you get scented soap in the toilets and a secretary in a short skirt
to screw after hours?

One doubts very much if that is his preference. The degree of
self-love the poster displays is not usually accompanied by normal
mating and nesting instincts. Oedipus complex, homosexuality, or
pedophilia, or any combination of the aforementioned would be fitting
for his personality disorder.

never find out. I doubt that someone with your exquisite manners would ever
be allowed into a board room, even as a guest.

Thanks, but there are less soul destroying ways to earn 6 figures than ending
up there.

Perhaps you wouldn't talk to much drivel if you actually did a real job.

Fortunately, I made more than enough money to be able to retire early when
I got bored with work. I wouldn't have been able to do that had I not been
able to communicate effectively.

Oddly I don't get bored with my work. But then I don't have to **** about
with powerpoint and talk ******** all day - I actually do something useful
and productive.

Real tech. skills improve with experience.

Now , isn't it time you went and drilled down to touch base with the organic
growth figures of the best-of-breed marrows in your greenhouse old man?

ROTFL.
--

http://www.991fmtalk.com/ The DMZ in Reno