Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:23:06 on
Fri, 7 Feb 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
I thought it was only available after
9.30 but so as to exclude those in most regular jobs but on
checking the 9.30 rule now only applies to overground rail, not
buses or the underground. Since when?

Since the 2008 Mayoral Election campaign when both Ken and Boris
promised to extend the hours it could be used on TfL services. Years
of negotiation have failed to secure an earlier start on National Rail
services - presumably because the TOCs want an astronomic amount of
"compensation" for lost revenue.

Why should the TOCs allow free travel? At the very least what Boris
should do is pick up the tab for all TOC trips made by the over-60's,
*paying the regular price* whatever that is according to the time of day.
Surely the numbers for that will drop out of the Oyster computer 'at the
press of a button'.

If it's unaffordable, then don't do it; but at least everyone would know
where they stand [or where they sit, offpeak perhaps].

The TOCs don't fund the free travel for the over 60s. As I understand it,
the London boroughs pay for those entitled to a full Freedom pass, and TfL
pays for those over 60 but not yet entitled to the Freedom pass. But the
cost can't be calculated easily on a journey by journey basis, so gross
estimates have to be used, and are subject to negotiation.

Why should the TOCs allow free travel? At the very least what Boris
should do is pick up the tab for all TOC trips made by the over-60's,
*paying the regular price* whatever that is according to the time of
day. Surely the numbers for that will drop out of the Oyster computer
'at the press of a button'.

Why should the charge be based on "the regular price"? That seems a
remarkably crude approach (c/f your own arguments about airline pricing
in December). Any normal person buying in such bulk would expect - and
get - a substantial discount as the TOCs get in return a secure source
of revenue with few overheads. What's wrong with starting from the
long-run marginal cost (LRMC) to the TOC (including of course loss of
revenue from other customers displaced) plus a profit margin?

Of course if the LRMC is too high then something has to give. Eg I'd be
inclined to keep the pre-09:30 exclusion if that is where there would be
significant displacement and so additional cost. But let's not pretend
the TOCs are losing significant revenues from, say, me getting a train
mid-afternoon which is c10% loaded for a journey I'd rarely make if I
had to pay the full fare.

--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

On Fri, 7 Feb 2014 10:56:26 -0000 Robin wrote :
Why should the charge be based on "the regular price"? That seems a
remarkably crude approach (c/f your own arguments about airline pricing
in December). Any normal person buying in such bulk would expect - and
get - a substantial discount as the TOCs get in return a secure source
of revenue with few overheads. What's wrong with starting from the
long-run marginal cost (LRMC) to the TOC (including of course loss of
revenue from other customers displaced) plus a profit margin?

Of course if the LRMC is too high then something has to give. Eg I'd be
inclined to keep the pre-09:30 exclusion if that is where there would be
significant displacement and so additional cost. But let's not pretend
the TOCs are losing significant revenues from, say, me getting a train
mid-afternoon which is c10% loaded for a journey I'd rarely make if I
had to pay the full fare.

Agreed. The LMRC (unless services were increased to cope with demand) is
near nil, so the key number is how much this group would be spending on
fares in the absence of free travel. With an 0900/0930 restriction, the
answer is probably not a lot; remove this and you add in large (and
increasing) numbers of those in work who have to travel and will pay the
standard fare.

I now live in Melbourne where at 60 if you sign that you are no longer in
full time work (I don't know whether they check) you are eligible for
concession fares, half the adult fare, free travel at weekend. London is
more than a little generous by comparison.

--
Tony B

I now live in Melbourne where at 60 if you sign that you are no
longer in full time work (I don't know whether they check) you are
eligible for concession fares, half the adult fare, free travel at
weekend. London is more than a little generous by comparison.

Very, very true.

green-eyed-monster-mode
But then you *do* get to live in Melbourne
/green-eyed-monster-mode

--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

In message , at 10:56:26 on Fri, 7 Feb 2014,
Robin remarked:
Why should the TOCs allow free travel? At the very least what Boris
should do is pick up the tab for all TOC trips made by the over-60's,
*paying the regular price* whatever that is according to the time of
day. Surely the numbers for that will drop out of the Oyster computer
'at the press of a button'.

Why should the charge be based on "the regular price"?

Because that's what each over-60 would have paid, absent the discount
card.

That seems a
remarkably crude approach (c/f your own arguments about airline pricing
in December). Any normal person buying in such bulk would expect - and
get - a substantial discount as the TOCs get in return a secure source
of revenue with few overheads. What's wrong with starting from the
long-run marginal cost (LRMC) to the TOC (including of course loss of
revenue from other customers displaced) plus a profit margin?

Because many of the trains are already over-subscribed, and flooding
them with pass-holders may well put off regular travellers.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:56:26 on Fri, 7 Feb 2014,
Robin remarked:
Why should the TOCs allow free travel? At the very least what Boris
should do is pick up the tab for all TOC trips made by the over-60's,
*paying the regular price* whatever that is according to the time of
day. Surely the numbers for that will drop out of the Oyster computer
'at the press of a button'.

Why should the charge be based on "the regular price"?

Because that's what each over-60 would have paid, absent the discount card.

Sure, but most wouldn't have travelled at all.

That seems a
remarkably crude approach (c/f your own arguments about airline pricing
in December). Any normal person buying in such bulk would expect - and
get - a substantial discount as the TOCs get in return a secure source
of revenue with few overheads. What's wrong with starting from the
long-run marginal cost (LRMC) to the TOC (including of course loss of
revenue from other customers displaced) plus a profit margin?

Because many of the trains are already over-subscribed, and flooding them
with pass-holders may well put off regular travellers.

Not after 9:30. Plus Freedom pass holders on discretionary trips probably
avoid travelling on packed trains.

In message

, at 05:40:44 on Fri, 7 Feb 2014, Recliner
remarked:
Why should the TOCs allow free travel? At the very least what Boris
should do is pick up the tab for all TOC trips made by the over-60's,
*paying the regular price* whatever that is according to the time of
day. Surely the numbers for that will drop out of the Oyster computer
'at the press of a button'.

Why should the charge be based on "the regular price"?

Because that's what each over-60 would have paid, absent the discount card.

Sure, but most wouldn't have travelled at all.

I'm not so sure. Plenty will be going to work, or some other
non-discretional trip.

That seems a
remarkably crude approach (c/f your own arguments about airline pricing
in December). Any normal person buying in such bulk would expect - and
get - a substantial discount as the TOCs get in return a secure source
of revenue with few overheads. What's wrong with starting from the
long-run marginal cost (LRMC) to the TOC (including of course loss of
revenue from other customers displaced) plus a profit margin?

Because many of the trains are already over-subscribed, and flooding them
with pass-holders may well put off regular travellers.

Not after 9:30. Plus Freedom pass holders on discretionary trips probably
avoid travelling on packed trains.

But we were told about "years of negotiations" (fruitless ones) to get
TOCs to offer travel before 9.30 - so the TOCs believe there's an issue
of non-discretionary travel before 9.30
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 19:09:10 on
Fri, 7 Feb 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:

Please point me to the place where I said they *should* offer free
travel?

I wasn't suggesting you had.
--
Roland Perry