In message , at 16:04:07 on
Tue, 22 Apr 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
I've used Oyster for years - PAYG and combined with a Travelcard. I
have had one mischarge in all that time which I queried and which was
resolved within minutes.

Others have not been so lucky (either avoiding mischarges or getting it
resolved quickly).

I didn't say they hadn't. I was merely relating my experience which
is not trouble free, just very low levels of trouble.

You probably understand the way it works rather better than most.

I do keep an eye on my charges as I travel.

An important question is "should that be necessary". Or perhaps "are we
surprised we need to do it", when 'advances' in a wide range of utility
billing merely gives the consumer ever more things to have to check up
on.

I look forward to someone inventing a fool proof fares system for
London that generate the same level of income and cope with the
financial demands for premium payments for TOC franchises. That rules
out flat fares before anyone suggests that!

There's a difference between the fares structure and the fare collecting
mechanism. Perhaps it's a bit like the old adage: "Good/Fast/Cheap, you
can only pick two".
--
Roland Perry

I have had four issues on Oyster.
1. I was unable to collect a topup due to illness. The help desk advised me, correctly, that it would be refunded to my card.
2 & 3 Delays took the journey time over the max. On both occasions I went straight to the ticket office (this was a long while ago) and it was sorted before I left the station
4. Unresolved journey. Changing from rail to tube at Tottenham Hale, in the crowd I didn't see any readers and assumed that entry through the tube gateline would be like boarding the Jubilee at Stratford. (That dates it). Again it was sorted as soon as I spotted it.

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Tue, 22 Apr 2014 00:45:47 -0700 (PDT), CJB
wrote:


Isn't TfL coining it with thousands of unresolved journeys? I would opine
that its tourists who lose out most of the time. If regular commuters get
caught out then tourists must - all of the time.

The scam I have seen at Paddington mainly at weekends is to force pax to
touch in for the Heathrow Connect or a FGW local from platforms 12 / 13 /
14 - and then suddenly switch the service(s) to platform 11 (or
whatever).
This means that they then have to touch out from 12 not having gone
anywhere and then touch back in to 11.
And this is why so many pax. wait at the indicator boards on 12 -
effectively blocking the route for tourists to/from the taxi rank - until
they know that the Connect or FGW locals really are departing from 12 /
13 / 14.

A few weeks ago I was inbound on the Connect and we came in on platform
9. There were quite a few tourists with luggage already waiting on 12.
They had to come round to 9 thereby touching out from 12.
But then 9 is open access so when they got to Heathrow they would have
touched in and out of 12 but not touched in on 11.
They would have paid a maximum fare for that journey.
The extraction of penalty fares for not touching in and out is tantamount
to theft. But like BT coin phones never giving back change form unused
coins these scams rake in millions of extra profit.
Rip-off Britain as usual.

Nice rant.

Do you have evidence that people are "ripped off" in the way you
suggest? Do you have evidence that tourists are any more prone to a
mischarge than anyone else? Were you able to automatically discern
that the people you saw touching out from P12 were using PAYG rather
than having a Travelcard on their ticket? I also thought there were
Oyster validators at ungated platforms at Paddington. Did you stand
and watch what each passenger did or did not do?

Unless you personally checked the card balances / ticket types on the
cards of those individuals you observed then I fear you are
extrapolating a potentially inaccurate conclusion from random partial
observations.

I thought that multiple gate arrays at terminals like Paddington were
configured to be "tolerant" of entry, exit and re-entry moves with
people NOT being charged maximum fares if using PAYG. This is in
recognition of the fact that trains do get replatformed.

I've used Oyster for years - PAYG and combined with a Travelcard. I
have had one mischarge in all that time which I queried and which was
resolved within minutes. I do keep an eye on my charges as I travel.

The trouble is that you are a regular user so any problems become apparent
quickly enough to resolve them.

As you know because I told the tale here of my wife losing something like
£10 because she was unaware of incomplete journeys because she didn't use
the Oyster card again until a year later. The evidence was clear enough on
the card's journey record but they just said "tough we're keeping your
money".

Also, how do you keep an eye on your charges if you use the older gates that
reveal no useful information?

Occasional tube users from outside London have no option but to use Oyster
or pay though the nose.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

? wrote

Occasional tube users from outside London have no option but to use Oyster
or pay though the nose.

They can buy a one day travel card.


-
Mike D

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
? wrote

Occasional tube users from outside London have no option but to use
Oyster or pay though the nose.

They can buy a one day travel card.

But now only zone 1-6? Most tourists don't travel outside zones 1 and 2,
unless they're Harry Potter fans, who need Watford.

In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
? wrote

Occasional tube users from outside London have no option but to use
Oyster or pay though the nose.

They can buy a one day travel card.

But now only zone 1-6? Most tourists don't travel outside zones 1 and 2,
unless they're Harry Potter fans, who need Watford.

I assume he means from outside the zones which have always been 1-6. It
depends heavily on the TOC. Worth buying from Oxford (FGW) but not from
Cambridge (FCC).

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Tue, 22 Apr 2014 16:11:24 -0500,
wrote:

As you know because I told the tale here of my wife losing something like
£10 because she was unaware of incomplete journeys because she didn't use
the Oyster card again until a year later. The evidence was clear enough
on the card's journey record but they just said "tough we're keeping your
money".

All I can say to that is there should have been a refund of monies due
given the evidence on the card. If it had been me I'd have pushed it
as far as I could with TfL and then referred it to London Travelwatch
if TfL were not playing ball. Beyond that it would be the Assembly
Transport Committee given they're very hot on Oyster charging woes.

I did a pretty well all of that, given that by then I wasn't in London very
often and we found out when my mother was dying so I had other things to do.
I know two people in London Travelwatch (one used to work for Cambridge City
Council) but they couldn't do much, it seems.

Also, how do you keep an eye on your charges if you use the older gates
that reveal no useful information?

Well if I miss a deduction at an old gate I will check my journey
history on a ticket machine straight away. I also keep a close eye on
my Oyster account and look to see what has been charged.

One has to, doesn't one? The problem is not being as aware of the system as
my wife isn't.

Finally in a piece of extreme data recording I maintain a spreadsheet
of every journey made with my Oyster card. This is so I can track if I
use the card sufficiently to exceed the price I paid. I also track how
much I pay out in extension journeys and top ups in assessing the
overall value for money. I've done this for 3 years so I can tell
where I went and on what mode on any given day. As I say all a bit
"anal" but it's been very helpful to be able to compare a Travelcard
against fares I would have paid against daily caps. I'm not advocating
anyone else should do this - I just find it helpful for my own
understanding.

Worth it for you, I'm sure. If I lived in London I might well do the same.
But not for an Oyster card that isn't used from one year to the next.

Occasional tube users from outside London have no option but to use
Oyster or pay though the nose.

Not strictly true given Visitor Travelcards are issued on paper as are
day travelcards. Travelcards from many NR stations are also issued on
paper. OK you have to be reasonably confident about the extent of
your travel to make that commitment of money. Occasional users do
have to buy into Oyster but will soon have the bank card option if
that is convenient for them.

That depends heavily on your TOC. FCC and GA charge rather more than many
for Day Travelcards as opposed to Day Returns. There is an eclectic range of
exceptions, with the cheapest and most expensive DRs. Bog standard
Any-Permissible CDRs charge so much that Oyster use would have to approach
the cap for most people (who stick to Zones 1 & 2).

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 23:08:20 on
Tue, 22 Apr 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
If I know I'm likely to be making rail journeys
then I will check to see how the journey is priced in the Single Fare
Finder so I can see what I'll be charged or if a cheaper fare / route
exists. Sometimes I have to do this using my smartphone while "on the
move" to avoid unnecessary charges.

That's all *such* a huge imposition on the traveller, compared with
selling them a paper ticket.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 09:31:14AM +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:28:28 on
Mon, 21 Apr 2014, Scott remarked:
When I had a difficulty (my own fault) it was corrected very quickly.
But too many people encounter problems, not always because they've
failed to take a degree in "advanced orienteering at Wimbledon station".

I don't even mind that there are problems. What I object to is:

* TfL's computers knew that there was a problem with this journey;
* TfL's computers knew an email address associated with that card;
* TfL's computers could have notified me automatically but didn't.

If they'd emailed me to notify me that there was a problem I'd be happy.

Well, mostly happy. Once I'd found out that they'd ****ed up, and I'd
filled in a form on their website, there was an additional step
required. Before they could refund me, they had to talk to me on the
phone. Which is a bit of a problem, because I'm deaf, but eventually and
with the nice gentleman in the call-centre repeating himself a lot we
got it sorted.

It's still not obvious that I've been charged the right amount, because
working out what the fares should be requires an advanced degree in
non-Euclidean economics*, but I did at least get *some* money refunded.
Given that I'm not a conspiracy theorist I'm going to assume that I was
refunded the right amount.

* yes, really. Explain this:

Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Apparently if I spend too long hanging around at Victoria, making it
think that I made three journeys instead of two, the price goes down.

--
David Cantrell | Official London Perl Mongers Bad Influence

Erudite is when you make a classical allusion to a
feather. Kinky is when you use the whole chicken.

On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 02:49:09PM +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

Do you have evidence that people are "ripped off" in the way you
suggest? Do you have evidence that tourists are any more prone to a
mischarge than anyone else?

Tourists are less likely to know that they are liable to be mis-charged
and less likely if they're aware of the potential problem to know how to
check whether they are a victim or not. Being mis-charged is probably
about as likely to happen to anyone on PAYG, but locals are more likely
to get the error corrected.

Do I have evidence that this actually happens? No. But it's *obvious*
both that tourists will make accidental errors, and that they are less
able to defend themselves against TfL's errors. We all know this. We've
all been tourists elsewhere.

I also thought there were
Oyster validators at ungated platforms at Paddington.

In the unlikely event that they think about the ticketing system (in
reality only transport nerds give it any of their precious attention)
it's reasonable to think "I've already touched in, then the platform
changed, the system must know what the touch-out means". Combine that
with not knowing that Oyster validators exist, or what they look like.

That the validators exist is not sufficient.

I've used Oyster for years - PAYG and combined with a Travelcard. I
have had one mischarge in all that time which I queried and which was
resolved within minutes. I do keep an eye on my charges as I travel.

That you know that you should keep an eye on it makes you unusual.

--
David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age

Today's previously unreported paraphilia is tomorrow's Internet sensation