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[email protected] · April 24th 14, 05:45 PM posted to uk.transport.london

In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

David Cantrell wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 02:50:13PM +0100, Mike Bristow wrote:
In article ,
David Cantrell wrote:
Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30

The Aldgate East - Victoria Fare is 2.20 peak/offpeak.
The Victoria - Thornton Heath fare is 3.70 peak, 2.60 offpeak.
Off peak starts in the evening at 19:00.
So there are _four_ possible fares for the journey home:
as a "two leg" trip, with both legs peak: 5.90.
as a "single leg" trip at peak time: 5.30.
as a "two leg trip", with the Vic - Thornton leg offpeak: 4.80
as a "single leg" trip at offpeak: 4.10

That means that if I leave Aldgate East at 18:49 I should be charged
a total of 4.80, because I won't go through the NR barriers at
Victoria until after 19:00. But I'm actually charged 5.30.

That looks correct -- the fare is based on when you entered, not
left, the system. So a journey starting at 18:49 is charged at peak
prices.

The difference is if the journey is split into two. I am not clear
why this journey might or might not be so split, given that touch
out and in at Victoria must happen.

Presumably it's an OSI, so it would be treated as one peak journey.

Indeed, but one example given in this thread managed to notice the
possibility of splitting and did so to minimise the fare.

You'd need to spend long enough in Victoria to exceed the OSI limit for it
to be treated as two journeys.

Look back up the thread:

Explain this:

Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged because of the
49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Recliner[_2_] · April 24th 14, 09:26 PM posted to uk.transport.london

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

David Cantrell wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 02:50:13PM +0100, Mike Bristow wrote:
In article ,
David Cantrell wrote:
Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30

The Aldgate East - Victoria Fare is 2.20 peak/offpeak.
The Victoria - Thornton Heath fare is 3.70 peak, 2.60 offpeak.
Off peak starts in the evening at 19:00.
So there are _four_ possible fares for the journey home:
as a "two leg" trip, with both legs peak: 5.90.
as a "single leg" trip at peak time: 5.30.
as a "two leg trip", with the Vic - Thornton leg offpeak: 4.80
as a "single leg" trip at offpeak: 4.10

That means that if I leave Aldgate East at 18:49 I should be charged
a total of 4.80, because I won't go through the NR barriers at
Victoria until after 19:00. But I'm actually charged 5.30.

That looks correct -- the fare is based on when you entered, not
left, the system. So a journey starting at 18:49 is charged at peak
prices.

The difference is if the journey is split into two. I am not clear
why this journey might or might not be so split, given that touch
out and in at Victoria must happen.

Presumably it's an OSI, so it would be treated as one peak journey.

Indeed, but one example given in this thread managed to notice the
possibility of splitting and did so to minimise the fare.

You'd need to spend long enough in Victoria to exceed the OSI limit for it
to be treated as two journeys.

Look back up the thread:

Explain this:

Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged because of the
49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

It looks like it, as it made the last journey off-peak.

[email protected] · April 25th 14, 12:00 AM posted to uk.transport.london

In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article

,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

David Cantrell wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 02:50:13PM +0100, Mike Bristow wrote:
In article ,
David Cantrell wrote:
Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30

The Aldgate East - Victoria Fare is 2.20 peak/offpeak.
The Victoria - Thornton Heath fare is 3.70 peak, 2.60 offpeak.
Off peak starts in the evening at 19:00.
So there are _four_ possible fares for the journey home:
as a "two leg" trip, with both legs peak: 5.90.
as a "single leg" trip at peak time: 5.30.
as a "two leg trip", with the Vic - Thornton leg offpeak: 4.80
as a "single leg" trip at offpeak: 4.10

That means that if I leave Aldgate East at 18:49 I should be
charged a total of 4.80, because I won't go through the NR
barriers at Victoria until after 19:00. But I'm actually charged
5.30.

That looks correct -- the fare is based on when you entered, not
left, the system. So a journey starting at 18:49 is charged at peak
prices.

The difference is if the journey is split into two. I am not clear
why this journey might or might not be so split, given that touch
out and in at Victoria must happen.

Presumably it's an OSI, so it would be treated as one peak journey.

Indeed, but one example given in this thread managed to notice the
possibility of splitting and did so to minimise the fare.

You'd need to spend long enough in Victoria to exceed the OSI limit for
it to be treated as two journeys.

Look back up the thread:

Explain this:

Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged
because of the 49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

It looks like it, as it made the last journey off-peak.

As would the 15 April journey I expect if split at Victoria.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Recliner[_2_] · April 25th 14, 12:20 AM posted to uk.transport.london

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article

,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

wrote:
In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

David Cantrell wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 02:50:13PM +0100, Mike Bristow wrote:
In article ,
David Cantrell wrote:
Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30

The Aldgate East - Victoria Fare is 2.20 peak/offpeak.
The Victoria - Thornton Heath fare is 3.70 peak, 2.60 offpeak.
Off peak starts in the evening at 19:00.
So there are _four_ possible fares for the journey home:
as a "two leg" trip, with both legs peak: 5.90.
as a "single leg" trip at peak time: 5.30.
as a "two leg trip", with the Vic - Thornton leg offpeak: 4.80
as a "single leg" trip at offpeak: 4.10

That means that if I leave Aldgate East at 18:49 I should be
charged a total of 4.80, because I won't go through the NR
barriers at Victoria until after 19:00. But I'm actually charged
5.30.

That looks correct -- the fare is based on when you entered, not
left, the system. So a journey starting at 18:49 is charged at peak
prices.

The difference is if the journey is split into two. I am not clear
why this journey might or might not be so split, given that touch
out and in at Victoria must happen.

Presumably it's an OSI, so it would be treated as one peak journey.

Indeed, but one example given in this thread managed to notice the
possibility of splitting and did so to minimise the fare.

You'd need to spend long enough in Victoria to exceed the OSI limit for
it to be treated as two journeys.

Look back up the thread:

Explain this:

Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged
because of the 49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

It looks like it, as it made the last journey off-peak.

As would the 15 April journey I expect if split at Victoria.

Yes, it's one of the mysteries of OSI, which was designed to benefit users,
but sometimes costs them for reasons that aren't instantly obvious. I
hadn't come across this variant before; more commonly, it attempts to
combine two fairly lengthy but legit journeys to create one that breaks
journey time limits, thus creating two (expensive) unresolved journeys. I
really think the algorithm in that case should be smarter, and it should
abort the attempted combination of multiple OSI journeys if it would lead
to unresolved compound journeys.

[email protected] · April 25th 14, 12:30 PM posted to uk.transport.london

In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

Yes, it's one of the mysteries of OSI, which was designed to benefit
users, but sometimes costs them for reasons that aren't instantly obvious.
I hadn't come across this variant before; more commonly, it attempts to
combine two fairly lengthy but legit journeys to create one that breaks
journey time limits, thus creating two (expensive) unresolved journeys. I
really think the algorithm in that case should be smarter, and it should
abort the attempted combination of multiple OSI journeys if it would lead
to unresolved compound journeys.

I agree. OSIs are nothing like as helpful as they are touted and should have
sanity checks. In fact any putative unresolved journey should be subject to
sanity checks for possibly legitimate journeys. I realise that may be
impossible for the original Oyster technology but the system is changing.
The helpline should be a lot more generous about refunds in the meantime.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Michael R N Dolbear · April 25th 14, 03:58 PM posted to uk.transport.london

wrote

(Recliner) wrote:

Yes, it's one of the mysteries of OSI, which was designed to benefit
users, but sometimes costs them for reasons that aren't instantly
obvious. I hadn't come across this variant before; more commonly, it
attempts to combine two fairly lengthy but legit journeys to create one
that breaks journey time limits, thus creating two (expensive)
unresolved journeys. I really think the algorithm in that case should be
smarter, and it should
abort the attempted combination of multiple OSI journeys if it would lead
to unresolved compound journeys.

I agree. OSIs are nothing like as helpful as they are touted and should
have
sanity checks. In fact any putative unresolved journey should be subject to
sanity checks for possibly legitimate journeys. I realise that may be
impossible for the original Oyster technology but the system is changing.
The helpline should be a lot more generous about refunds in the meantime.

As noted elsethread the contactless card implementation should be able to do
better since it can see the whole day.
Oyster has to make its decisions step by step with a possible batch refund
the next day - do these still occur ?

--
Mike D

Peter Smyth[_2_] · April 25th 14, 05:25 PM posted to uk.transport.london

wrote:

You'd need to spend long enough in Victoria to exceed the OSI limit
for it to be treated as two journeys.

Look back up the thread:

Explain this:

Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged because
of the 49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

The allowed time for the LU - NR OSI at Victoria is 40 minutes. If the
gap between the LU touch-out and the NR touch-in is longer than this,
it will be charged as two separate journeys. In most cases this will
cost more, but in some circumstances can be beneficial.

Peter Smyth

[email protected] · April 25th 14, 10:38 PM posted to uk.transport.london

In article , (Peter Smyth) wrote:

wrote:

You'd need to spend long enough in Victoria to exceed the OSI limit
for it to be treated as two journeys.

Look back up the thread:

Explain this:

Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged because
of the 49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

The allowed time for the LU - NR OSI at Victoria is 40 minutes. If the
gap between the LU touch-out and the NR touch-in is longer than this,
it will be charged as two separate journeys. In most cases this will
cost more, but in some circumstances can be beneficial.

If it is beneficial, like the second leg being out of peak hours as here,
why isn't it charged that way? Most unfair.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Recliner[_2_] · April 25th 14, 10:51 PM posted to uk.transport.london

wrote:
In article , (Peter Smyth) wrote:

wrote:

You'd need to spend long enough in Victoria to exceed the OSI limit
for it to be treated as two journeys.

Look back up the thread:

Explain this:

Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged because
of the 49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

The allowed time for the LU - NR OSI at Victoria is 40 minutes. If the
gap between the LU touch-out and the NR touch-in is longer than this,
it will be charged as two separate journeys. In most cases this will
cost more, but in some circumstances can be beneficial.

If it is beneficial, like the second leg being out of peak hours as here,
why isn't it charged that way? Most unfair.

The current Oyster rules are relatively simple and deterministic -- it
doesn't look at all the possible ways of charging for a complex journey and
then choose the cheapest one. It just has a simple algorithm to determine
whether multiple journeys should be combined, and then charges for the
compound journey once it concludes. It doesn't go back and calculate if
other combinations would have been cheaper.

Roland Perry · April 26th 14, 07:07 AM posted to uk.transport.london

In message , at 17:38:19
on Fri, 25 Apr 2014, remarked:
Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged because
of the 49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

The allowed time for the LU - NR OSI at Victoria is 40 minutes. If the
gap between the LU touch-out and the NR touch-in is longer than this,
it will be charged as two separate journeys. In most cases this will
cost more, but in some circumstances can be beneficial.

If it is beneficial, like the second leg being out of peak hours as here,
why isn't it charged that way? Most unfair.

Surely this is simply a variation on the theme of "splitting tickets",
which National Rail ticket offices fail to do if you buy for a journey
starting in the morning peak but ending off-peak.

For example, Nottingham-Manchester:

NOT Depart 08.47 £53.50 Anytime Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

NOT Depart 08.47 £23.00 Anytime Return
SHF Arrive 09.37
SHF Depart 09.41 £18.30 Off Peak Day Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

Saving £12.20; you'd have to travel an hour later to get the "through"
off-peak ticket, albeit that saves even more (being priced at just
£29.70).

What's more worrying is that if there's ever a National PAYG scheme,
whether by paywave or ITSO, then it'll undoubtedly fail to volunteer to
save the traveller that £12.20 - unless perhaps they manage to dash out
of the barriers and back in the four minutes available.
--
Roland Perry

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