In message , at 17:38:19
on Fri, 25 Apr 2014, remarked:
Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged because
of the 49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

The allowed time for the LU - NR OSI at Victoria is 40 minutes. If the
gap between the LU touch-out and the NR touch-in is longer than this,
it will be charged as two separate journeys. In most cases this will
cost more, but in some circumstances can be beneficial.

If it is beneficial, like the second leg being out of peak hours as here,
why isn't it charged that way? Most unfair.

Surely this is simply a variation on the theme of "splitting tickets",
which National Rail ticket offices fail to do if you buy for a journey
starting in the morning peak but ending off-peak.

For example, Nottingham-Manchester:

NOT Depart 08.47 £53.50 Anytime Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

NOT Depart 08.47 £23.00 Anytime Return
SHF Arrive 09.37
SHF Depart 09.41 £18.30 Off Peak Day Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

Saving £12.20; you'd have to travel an hour later to get the "through"
off-peak ticket, albeit that saves even more (being priced at just
£29.70).

What's more worrying is that if there's ever a National PAYG scheme,
whether by paywave or ITSO, then it'll undoubtedly fail to volunteer to
save the traveller that £12.20 - unless perhaps they manage to dash out
of the barriers and back in the four minutes available.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 08:07:43 on Sat, 26 Apr
2014, Roland Perry remarked:
In message , at 17:38:19
on Fri, 25 Apr 2014, remarked:
Tue 15 Apr
09:15 - 10:14 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:49 - 19:56 Aldgate East - Thornton Heath: GBP 5.30
Total: GBP10.60

OK, that looks sane. Same amount in both directions.

Thu 17 Apr
09:07 - 10:16 Thornton Heath - Aldgate East: GBP 5.30
18:41 - 19:01 Aldgate East - Victoria : GBP 2.20
19:50 - 20:26 Victoria - Thornton Heath : GBP 2.60
Total: GBP10.10

Are you saying the cheaper fare on 17 April was only charged because
of the 49 minute gap at Victoria exceeding the OSI limit?

The allowed time for the LU - NR OSI at Victoria is 40 minutes. If the
gap between the LU touch-out and the NR touch-in is longer than this,
it will be charged as two separate journeys. In most cases this will
cost more, but in some circumstances can be beneficial.

If it is beneficial, like the second leg being out of peak hours as here,
why isn't it charged that way? Most unfair.

Surely this is simply a variation on the theme of "splitting tickets",
which National Rail ticket offices fail to do if you buy for a journey
starting in the morning peak but ending off-peak.

For example, Nottingham-Manchester:

NOT Depart 08.47 £53.50 Anytime Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

NOT Depart 08.47 £23.00 Anytime Return
SHF Arrive 09.37
SHF Depart 09.41 £18.30 Off Peak Day Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

Saving £12.20;

Thinking about this some more, if you split tickets at Alfreton (on that
same train) you'll save £18.40

you'd have to travel an hour later to get the "through" off-peak
ticket, albeit that saves even more (being priced at just £29.70).

What's more worrying is that if there's ever a National PAYG scheme,
whether by paywave or ITSO, then it'll undoubtedly fail to volunteer to
save the traveller that £12.20 - unless perhaps they manage to dash out
of the barriers and back in the four minutes available.

--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

Surely this is simply a variation on the theme of "splitting
tickets", which National Rail ticket offices fail to do if you buy
for a journey starting in the morning peak but ending off-peak.

For example, Nottingham-Manchester:

NOT Depart 08.47 £53.50 Anytime Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

NOT Depart 08.47 £23.00 Anytime Return
SHF Arrive 09.37
SHF Depart 09.41 £18.30 Off Peak Day Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

Saving £12.20; you'd have to travel an hour later to get the
"through" off-peak ticket, albeit that saves even more (being priced
at just £29.70).

What's more worrying is that if there's ever a National PAYG scheme,
whether by paywave or ITSO, then it'll undoubtedly fail to volunteer
to save the traveller that £12.20 - unless perhaps they manage to
dash out of the barriers and back in the four minutes available.

Surely it's time that train operators were required to offer passengers the
cheapest fares, allowing for options like this and have done with it? Why
should only those good at gaming the system benefit? It's overcharging by
stealth which shouldn't be allowed.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 05:37:22
on Sat, 26 Apr 2014, remarked:
Surely this is simply a variation on the theme of "splitting
tickets", which National Rail ticket offices fail to do if you buy
for a journey starting in the morning peak but ending off-peak.

For example, Nottingham-Manchester:

NOT Depart 08.47 £53.50 Anytime Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

NOT Depart 08.47 £23.00 Anytime Return
SHF Arrive 09.37
SHF Depart 09.41 £18.30 Off Peak Day Return
MAN Arrive 10.36

Saving £12.20; you'd have to travel an hour later to get the
"through" off-peak ticket, albeit that saves even more (being priced
at just £29.70).

What's more worrying is that if there's ever a National PAYG scheme,
whether by paywave or ITSO, then it'll undoubtedly fail to volunteer
to save the traveller that £12.20 - unless perhaps they manage to
dash out of the barriers and back in the four minutes available.

Surely it's time that train operators were required to offer passengers the
cheapest fares, allowing for options like this and have done with it?

They prefer to sell end-to-end tickets, and have all sorts of excuses
why splitting tickets is a bad idea. Near London, the rule of "train
arrives London after 10am [or whatever]" does level the playing field
for everyone en-route. But in the rest of the country people have a
"train departs this station after 9am [or whatever]" rule, which is at
least simpler to describe even if it provides opportunities for splits.

Why should only those good at gaming the system benefit? It's
overcharging by stealth which shouldn't be allowed.

Ultimately, I suppose, there would need to be a system which made the
"polluter pay" according to the congestion on each individual station
pair. But that would probably introduce anomalies depending on whether
your train was fast or semi-fast. ie the fast train would have to be
high-price all the way, whereas a semi-fast might change to a lower
pricing band halfway home when the first tranche of passengers had
already got off.
--
Roland Perry

On 26/04/2014 11:37, wrote:

Surely it's time that train operators were required to offer passengers the
cheapest fares, allowing for options like this and have done with it?

Because only tight-fisted anoraks would do (say) Cambridge - London via
Ipswich, splitting tickets at every halt, arriving a fortnight on
Tuesday but saving 5p on the direct train which is just about to depart.
But somebody somewhere would no doubt complain if the ticket clerk
didn't do the calculations at 7.30am on a Monday.

Selling the cheapest A-Z ticket is a lot easier than than crunching
through every intermediate option vis B, C, D etc.

Why
should only those good at gaming the system benefit?

So we get some benefit from our anorakdom?

It's overcharging by
stealth which shouldn't be allowed.

I think people should be very careful what they wish for - eg would we
happy to lose "any reasonable" route in its fossilised "any permitted"
form in favour of tightly nailed-downing routings, which might be likely
to follow any crackdown on the ability to save by splitting tickets?
Would we want the industry to lose the ability to fiddle around with
fares to try to grow specific markets?


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

In message , at
21:18:38 on Sat, 26 Apr 2014, Arthur Figgis
remarked:
Surely it's time that train operators were required to offer passengers the
cheapest fares, allowing for options like this and have done with it?

Because only tight-fisted anoraks would do (say) Cambridge - London via
Ipswich, splitting tickets at every halt, arriving a fortnight on
Tuesday but saving 5p on the direct train which is just about to
depart. But somebody somewhere would no doubt complain if the ticket
clerk didn't do the calculations at 7.30am on a Monday.

Selling the cheapest A-Z ticket is a lot easier than than crunching
through every intermediate option vis B, C, D etc.

But the splits are often "obvious". If the passenger is getting a train
on a 1tph route, and has asked to leave at (say) 8.30am [they are likely
to have been asked this already] then splitting the tickets peak/offpeak
at a station a little over half an hour away is pretty straightforward.

I think people should be very careful what they wish for - eg would we
happy to lose "any reasonable" route in its fossilised "any permitted"
form in favour of tightly nailed-downing routings, which might be
likely to follow any crackdown on the ability to save by splitting
tickets?

While splitting tickets does nail down one of the points en-route, it
doesn't always introduce a routing inflexibility. From Great Anglia
territory, for example, all "not London" route to the Midlands and
beyond go via Peterborough. So splitting tickets there is not going to
be a problem.

Would we want the industry to lose the ability to fiddle around with
fares to try to grow specific markets?

That's a more significant issue, although sometimes these "specific
markets" don't seem to make a lot so sense. For example from Cambridge
to Birmingham by XC there's often a draught of AP tickets, but splitting
them at Peterborough then releases a pair of tickets on the self same
train, Cambridge to Peterborough, then Peterborough-Birmingham.
--
Roland Perry