In article ,
(tim.....) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(tim.....) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Roland Perry) wrote:

In message ,
at 06:26:30 on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
It looks like National Express Essex Thameside plan to roll out CPC
ticketing across their network


http://nationalexpressgroup.com/medi...?newsitem=1355

"Smart ticketing across the route from day one, with route-wide
contactless payment rolled out in 2017."

They are the DfT's chosen pilot for ITSO, so I expect the
contactless payment will be from your ITSO wallet, not your
credit card.

ie CPC= Contactless Payment Card, not Contactless Credit Card

It barely qualifies for the term "network" though, having just one
point-to-point line with a loop via Greys. Which also explains why
they have good performance figures. No pesky late-running
cross-country trains from Bristol to Edinburgh competing for their
assets.

Or a loop via Grays even.

ps: "Passengers given a new right to be sold the cheapest ticket for
any c2c journey and compensation if they are not."

Isn't this the case already?? Or is it in fact a right to be sold
the cheapest ticket, but no redress if you aren't.

How many possible cases are there of not being sold the cheapest
ticket?

Not being given the "weekend" return price

ISTR someone complaining about the TMs at Cambridge(/Ely) not
offering these

You and Roland are missing the point I was making which applied solely
to C2C.

perhaps, but I did chose that example because it is an available
ticket type on C2C

The key point is that the promise is a bit limited due to the much simpler
ticketing on c2 compared to pretty well every other TOC.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 21:22:02 on Fri, 27 Jun
2014, tim..... remarked:
"c2c's ITSO-compliant Smartcard can now be loaded with Anytime
Weekday and Off-Peak Returns, plus weekly, monthly and annual season
tickets and used at sfor (sic) stations between Shoeburyness/Southend
and Tilbury Town/West Horndon"

Also for trips to London (not just between Southend and Tilbury?)

Is that a question or a statement?

----------------------- question mark ---------------------------^

(I think the answer is No)

So they are chickening out of getting too involved in London, at the
moment.

London travelcards are part of phase II from October

So still well into vapourware.

http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/tickets-...art-card/index

http://www.itso.org.uk/

It doesn't say how you actually pay for the tickets that you load
onto the card, so I guess that is by putting some form of payment
into the ticket machine at time of purchase. Nor does it say if the
purchased tickets are a store of open tickets or only for a designated date.

My only experience is now somewhat out of date (EMT's ITSO pilot). I
think they didn't activate the purse, and so payment was by
traditional means (including CCs at machine and online).

As purchases at machines are (in almost all cases) famously for
"today only", I haven't tried an online purchase of an ITSO day
return for a day in the future. Anyone compiling a chart of all of
this should certainly have that as one of the tickable possibilities.

You can definitely buy tickets "online" for "tomorrow". the engine
seemed exactly the same as the SET one and that sells tickets into the
future.

This was about using the ITSO purse to *pay* - how does that work
online?

But my query was "can I buy a ticket that I would like to use for one
day next week but I'm not sure which day?" - to be dated the day that I
pick it up (if that is a necessary simplicity).

One way of doing that would be to have a "prepaid voucher" loaded onto
the ITSO card that gets turned into a day-ticket when you touch in. I
wouldn't want to be designing a system that allowed more than one
voucher at a time to be active.

So the only "biggie" here is that you can buy (and presumably pay)
online and pick up your ticket at the gate (or not),

That's the future for ITSO, but doesn't explain what happens if you
have multiple tickets awaiting collection. Reverting to a scheme
where tickets dated "today" are only valid "today" would help, but
last time they tried that for Anytime tickets they rapidly changed it
back to "today plus three days" for the outbound leg.

I think we're back to the discussion that we had before about this
being nothing more than an electronic "paper ticket" (with online
purchase option)

That's all it is. With the added problem that if you have several
un-used tickets in your pocket, which one will the barrier decide you
want to use?

all c2c tickets seem to be "day" validity only, so that problem doesn't
apply here

They could be, but the idea is that one day ITSO will be used across the
country on routes that do have period returns. So actually it's not a
very representative pilot if the C2C line doesn't have those.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 13:04:33
on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, remarked:

You and Roland are missing the point I was making which applied solely to
C2C.

I'm sure they also have peak/offpeak rules which staff can
misunderstand.

A lot simpler than those of GA & FCC, i bet.

They seem to have just one off-peak ticket on weekdays, valid for
arrival in London after 10am and any train back.

So this ITSO trial on C2C isn't really going to test how well they can
cope with a mixture of evening restrictions.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 21:22:02 on Fri, 27 Jun
2014, tim..... remarked:
"c2c's ITSO-compliant Smartcard can now be loaded with Anytime Weekday
and Off-Peak Returns, plus weekly, monthly and annual season tickets and
used at sfor (sic) stations between Shoeburyness/Southend and Tilbury
Town/West Horndon"

Also for trips to London (not just between Southend and Tilbury?)

Is that a question or a statement?

----------------------- question mark ---------------------------^

It is inside the bracket (and therefore seems to be saying "is it
Tilbury?") - I thought you were better at English than me :--)

tim

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 21:22:02 on Fri, 27 Jun
2014, tim..... remarked:

You can definitely buy tickets "online" for "tomorrow". the engine seemed
exactly the same as the SET one and that sells tickets into the future.

This was about using the ITSO purse to *pay* - how does that work online?

I didn't think we'd even established that there is an (operational) purse.

But if there is, taking the money from the purse and replacing it with a
ticket valid for X, within the "to be collected" database, doesn't seem too
technically difficult.

But my query was "can I buy a ticket that I would like to use for one day
next week but I'm not sure which day?" - to be dated the day that I pick
it up (if that is a necessary simplicity).

One way of doing that would be to have a "prepaid voucher" loaded onto the
ITSO card that gets turned into a day-ticket when you touch in. I wouldn't
want to be designing a system that allowed more than one voucher at a time
to be active.

Once again I don't think the system level design is too difficult here.

Not sure how your single ticket option will work if someone wants to make a
lunchtime journey that they didn't anticipate when they left home for work.
TBH this seems to be the only "difficult" thing that they have to consider
ATM.

Perhaps this is why they have trials. The geeks in the office don't even
bother to come up with a set of scenarios that don't work and postulate
solutions, before implementation of a trial. They just wait to see what
breaks and fix it later (no doubt to the immense inconvenience of the first
customer who tries it)

So the only "biggie" here is that you can buy (and presumably pay)
online and pick up your ticket at the gate (or not),

That's the future for ITSO, but doesn't explain what happens if you have
multiple tickets awaiting collection. Reverting to a scheme where
tickets dated "today" are only valid "today" would help, but last time
they tried that for Anytime tickets they rapidly changed it back to
"today plus three days" for the outbound leg.

I think we're back to the discussion that we had before about this being
nothing more than an electronic "paper ticket" (with online purchase
option)

That's all it is. With the added problem that if you have several
un-used tickets in your pocket, which one will the barrier decide you
want to use?

all c2c tickets seem to be "day" validity only, so that problem doesn't
apply here

They could be, but the idea is that one day ITSO will be used across the
country on routes that do have period returns. So actually it's not a very
representative pilot if the C2C line doesn't have those.

Oh I agree

No doubt there will have to be more trial operations when such a TOC does
implement it

tim

In message , at 11:30:06 on Sat, 28
Jun 2014, tim..... remarked:

You can definitely buy tickets "online" for "tomorrow". the engine
seemed exactly the same as the SET one and that sells tickets into
the future.

This was about using the ITSO purse to *pay* - how does that work online?

I didn't think we'd even established that there is an (operational) purse.

ITSO cards are supposed to have purses, and although it's a while since
I tried I think there was evidence of a dormant purse when using EMT's
early ITSO-equipped TVMs

I have a Centro "Swift" card (for buses) which has a purse - I had to
pay £10 for the card because it comes pre-loaded with some funds. At tht
point it's remarkably similar to using an PAYG Oyster on a bus.

But if there is, taking the money from the purse and replacing it with
a ticket valid for X, within the "to be collected" database, doesn't
seem too technically difficult.

But my query was "can I buy a ticket that I would like to use for one
day next week but I'm not sure which day?" - to be dated the day that
I pick it up (if that is a necessary simplicity).

One way of doing that would be to have a "prepaid voucher" loaded
onto the ITSO card that gets turned into a day-ticket when you touch
in. I wouldn't want to be designing a system that allowed more than
one voucher at a time to be active.

Once again I don't think the system level design is too difficult here.

Not sure how your single ticket option will work if someone wants to
make a lunchtime journey that they didn't anticipate when they left
home for work. TBH this seems to be the only "difficult" thing that
they have to consider ATM.

More difficult is if you have trips to different destinations loaded as
vouchers. Say you live in Grays and have vouchers for both Southend and
London, because you anticipate visiting both soon (and not necessarily
knowing in which order). Which voucher should it swap for a ticket?

Perhaps this is why they have trials. The geeks in the office don't
even bother to come up with a set of scenarios that don't work and
postulate solutions, before implementation of a trial. They just wait
to see what breaks and fix it later (no doubt to the immense
inconvenience of the first customer who tries it)

It's a bit more pre-planned than that, although I agree there have been
some major hiccups that should have been anticipated. For example my EMT
card would only allow me to buy Child tickets, because the card knows
your age and the simplest explanations is that they'd coded the DOB
field on the card with its issue date.

--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 09:44:14 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:
They could be, but the idea is that one day ITSO will be used
across the
country on routes that do have period returns.

It's out of date before they even start.

Neil

--
Neil Williams. Use neil before the at to reply.

On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 10:55:54 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
Perhaps this is why they have trials. The geeks in the office don't
even bother to come up with a set of scenarios that don't work and
postulate solutions, before implementation of a trial. They just wait
to see what breaks and fix it later (no doubt to the immense
inconvenience of the first customer who tries it)

It's a bit more pre-planned than that, although I agree there have been
some major hiccups that should have been anticipated. For example my EMT
card would only allow me to buy Child tickets, because the card knows
your age and the simplest explanations is that they'd coded the DOB
field on the card with its issue date.

A lot of effort and HUGE amounts of money just to replace a small bit of
paper card that did the job fine. What a joke.

--
Spud

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
13:04:33 on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, remarked:

You and Roland are missing the point I was making which applied solely
to C2C.

I'm sure they also have peak/offpeak rules which staff can
misunderstand.

A lot simpler than those of GA & FCC, i bet.

They seem to have just one off-peak ticket on weekdays, valid for
arrival in London after 10am and any train back.

So this ITSO trial on C2C isn't really going to test how well they
can cope with a mixture of evening restrictions.

Indeed, as the barriers at Cambridge can't do already. Every time I come
back on an Off-Peak Day Return in the evening peak from Liverpool St (as
permitted) the barrier doesn't let me out.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 10:55:54 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
Perhaps this is why they have trials. The geeks in the office don't
even bother to come up with a set of scenarios that don't work and
postulate solutions, before implementation of a trial. They just wait
to see what breaks and fix it later (no doubt to the immense
inconvenience of the first customer who tries it)

It's a bit more pre-planned than that, although I agree there have been
some major hiccups that should have been anticipated. For example my EMT
card would only allow me to buy Child tickets, because the card knows
your age and the simplest explanations is that they'd coded the DOB
field on the card with its issue date.

A lot of effort and HUGE amounts of money just to replace a small bit of
paper card that did the job fine. What a joke.

I think they make a big contribution to the evolvement of season tickets by
offering flexible number of days and carnets for one's regular journey.

But I agree that, as a complete replacement for single point to point
tickets, the complications of not knowing whether the pax is making the
return journey from an outbound he has already used or a new outbound to
somewhere else is (almost) unsolvable - and that problem's just the same
whether you force pax to "buy" a virtual ticket before travel or rely upon
calculating the fare using Oyster style check-in/check-out.

Of course, other transport operators who are looking at using this
technology don't have the concept of (substantial) discounts for return
journeys, but I can see that doing away with day/period return discounts is
going to endear the public to this new ticketing system.

tim









--
Spud