wrote in message ...
On 26/06/2014 22:47, tim..... wrote:


wrote in message
...
On 26/06/2014 00:55, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 23:00:36 +0100, "
wrote:

What are the plans for expanding contactless into other cities or
further afield on NR?

I think the Rail Delivery Group are considering the technology but
beyond that I don't know. I am not aware that any of the city regions
are considering contactless bank cards - they're all struggling to get
ITSO based schemes into service.

The only other scheme was First Group's move into smartcards for its
buses - that scheme was based on bank card acceptance first plus ITSO
for concessionary tickets. However progress has been very slow and I
don't know if they even have a trial area operating.

What is odd is that the technology should be very straightforward
given there are known standards and a competitive supplier base. There
must be horrendous issues with company processes, security and
deployment issues given how incredibly slow the progress is with so
many schemes - even when only in one company. Multi operator schemes
in deregulated areas will always be hard as no one can force the bus
companies to take part and there's always the issue of "who pays?".


Isn't that a bit of a waste of time and resources to work on
introducing ITSO, when eventually everybody will go over to contactless?

the comment from others suggest that that wont be happening, any time
soon

tim


It will eventually, however.

wanna bet :-)

tim

On 26/06/2014 23:16, tim..... wrote:


wrote in message ...
On 26/06/2014 22:47, tim..... wrote:


wrote in message
...
On 26/06/2014 00:55, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 23:00:36 +0100, "
wrote:

What are the plans for expanding contactless into other cities or
further afield on NR?

I think the Rail Delivery Group are considering the technology but
beyond that I don't know. I am not aware that any of the city regions
are considering contactless bank cards - they're all struggling to get
ITSO based schemes into service.

The only other scheme was First Group's move into smartcards for its
buses - that scheme was based on bank card acceptance first plus ITSO
for concessionary tickets. However progress has been very slow and I
don't know if they even have a trial area operating.

What is odd is that the technology should be very straightforward
given there are known standards and a competitive supplier base. There
must be horrendous issues with company processes, security and
deployment issues given how incredibly slow the progress is with so
many schemes - even when only in one company. Multi operator schemes
in deregulated areas will always be hard as no one can force the bus
companies to take part and there's always the issue of "who pays?".


Isn't that a bit of a waste of time and resources to work on
introducing ITSO, when eventually everybody will go over to
contactless?

the comment from others suggest that that wont be happening, any time
soon

tim


It will eventually, however.

wanna bet :-)

tim


I'd have that that they would have gone for this in the Nordic states as
well as in Japan.

On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 14:56:17 +0200, "tim....."
wrote:
what with one of those "press the lever n time to release the
correct number
of coins", coin holders?

When did you last see one of those?

Neil

--
Neil Williams. Use neil before the at to reply.

In message , at 22:15:28 on Thu, 26 Jun
2014, " remarked:
What are the plans for expanding contactless into other cities or
further afield on NR?

I think the Rail Delivery Group are considering the technology but
beyond that I don't know. I am not aware that any of the city regions
are considering contactless bank cards - they're all struggling to get
ITSO based schemes into service.
....
Isn't that a bit of a waste of time and resources to work on
introducing ITSO, when eventually everybody will go over to contactless?

ITSO is much simpler than contactless, especially because it stores
products on the card rather than in a collection of databases.

Therefore a season ticket on ITSO will work the barriers where-ever it's
valid, without the need to be sending data off to the central computers
every time it's touched.

Far better for the customer too if an off-route touch refuses entry,
than produces an unexpected and potentially punitive day-ticket for that
trip, once the sums have been done a day later.
--
Roland Perry

On 26/06/2014 22:15, wrote:
On 26/06/2014 00:55, Paul Corfield wrote:
[snip]


Isn't that a bit of a waste of time and resources to work on introducing
ITSO, when eventually everybody will go over to contactless?

Not really - they serve different purposes.
The Contactless Payment Cards (aka cEMV), and the undelying "Transit
Model" that the banks and credit card companies have developed, have
limits on the value of an individual journey, and on the total amount
that can be accumlated before (a) payment is collected, and (b) online
validation (CHip'n'PIN) is required at a reader.
So while cEMV will work well for daily travel around a town or city, it
won't work for inter-urban travel where a ticket might cost £50+.

But then the same applies to any ePurse-based system. With something
like Oyster, a 'max fare' is deducted on entry, and a refund applied
when you tap out on exit. This max fare affects the minimum balance you
need on the card.
Now apply that to travel from Penzance to Wick. Would you want to have
that much credit on your card/account if all YOU wanted to do was
travel around London?

The issue is that there are many different travel patterns, and there
isn't a one size fits all smart ticketing product. We will need
different products on smartcard / mobile phones / whatever to allow
anybody to do whatever journey they wish.

Just my 0.02GBP

Kevin

In message , at 09:46:36 on Fri, 27 Jun
2014, Kevin Ayton remarked:
The issue is that there are many different travel patterns, and there
isn't a one size fits all smart ticketing product. We will need
different products on smartcard / mobile phones / whatever to allow
anybody to do whatever journey they wish.

There's also a big difference for what's travel in essentially a zonal
system, compared to point-to-point. Even then the Oyster system can't
quite cope and has a complex system of en-route validators (which even
people here have problems understanding) to say things like "I didn't go
via Z1, honest guv".

Contactless would also only work for "single" fares (the complications
arising from things like period returns and which particular return half
you were 'using' a week later are simply enormous). And that means a
complete re-think of the National Rail fares system, and the concepts we
have today where singles are rarely half the price of a return [often
only 10p less].

Then there's the revenue lost because people could make a trip
comprising an Anytime fare in the morning and off-peak return, whereas
today they are often forced to 'waste' the Anytime return half ticket on
an off-peak home leg.
--
Roland Perry

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 22:15:28 +0100, "
wrote:


Their main experience of CBCs will, of course, be when TfL launches
their facility that will cover the zonal area. It will be interesting
to see what happens to the relative balance of ticket products and
sales. The London TOCs that were so resistant to Oyster were
perfectly delighted to see their ridership and revenue soar once it
was extended to their services.

Did that really happen? I find it hard to believe that a near doubling of
fares (introduction of Oyster Zonal pricing has removed the 49% day return
discount, without making the one way journey any cheaper) resulted in
increased ridership

tim

wrote in message ...
On 26/06/2014 23:16, tim..... wrote:


wrote in message
...
On 26/06/2014 22:47, tim..... wrote:


wrote in message
...
On 26/06/2014 00:55, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 23:00:36 +0100, "
wrote:

What are the plans for expanding contactless into other cities or
further afield on NR?

I think the Rail Delivery Group are considering the technology but
beyond that I don't know. I am not aware that any of the city regions
are considering contactless bank cards - they're all struggling to
get
ITSO based schemes into service.

The only other scheme was First Group's move into smartcards for its
buses - that scheme was based on bank card acceptance first plus ITSO
for concessionary tickets. However progress has been very slow and I
don't know if they even have a trial area operating.

What is odd is that the technology should be very straightforward
given there are known standards and a competitive supplier base.
There
must be horrendous issues with company processes, security and
deployment issues given how incredibly slow the progress is with so
many schemes - even when only in one company. Multi operator schemes
in deregulated areas will always be hard as no one can force the bus
companies to take part and there's always the issue of "who pays?".


Isn't that a bit of a waste of time and resources to work on
introducing ITSO, when eventually everybody will go over to
contactless?

the comment from others suggest that that wont be happening, any time
soon

tim


It will eventually, however.

wanna bet :-)

tim


I'd have that that they would have gone for this in the Nordic states as
well as in Japan.

Well it just happens that my only other experience of contactless cards is
in Skane (Southern Sweden) where they are currently contracting Cubic to
give them an Oyster-like system.

But whilst they are using the same contactless technology to pay for travel,
they haven't done away with "tickets".

For anything more complicated than a bus journey (single or multi step) you
have to specify (to a human or a machine)what zone you are destined for and
will receive a paper ticket to show that. You then need this paper ticket
in case you are checked on your journey.

So I don't hold the same expectation as you that they will take this next
step to contactless any time soon, as they haven't even taken the step to
ticketless

tim

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
. net...
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 14:56:17 +0200, "tim....."
wrote:
what with one of those "press the lever n time to release the
correct number
of coins", coin holders?

When did you last see one of those?

2 days ago

tim

In article ,
(tim.....) wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 22:15:28 +0100, "
wrote:


Their main experience of CBCs will, of course, be when TfL launches
their facility that will cover the zonal area. It will be
interesting
to see what happens to the relative balance of ticket products and
sales. The London TOCs that were so resistant to Oyster were
perfectly delighted to see their ridership and revenue soar once it
was extended to their services.

Did that really happen? I find it hard to believe that a near
doubling of fares (introduction of Oyster Zonal pricing has removed
the 49% day return discount, without making the one way journey any
cheaper) resulted in increased ridership

Not exactly. It halved the Vauxhall-Putney single fare for me. I was told
this was to stop day returns going up too much.

--
Colin Rosenstiel