In message , at 18:55:45
on Mon, 14 Jul 2014, remarked:
It's interesting that Govia are pushing Oyster, when the current
Southern incumbent is pushing ITSO instead.

SN is run by...Govia!

and will be part of the TSGN franchise next year.

Yes, I don't know what I was thinking... So I'm all set, already having
Southern ITSO card, assuming they press on with their current project.

"Nine London Terminal stations: London Waterloo, London Blackfriars,
Vauxhall, London Bridge, London Victoria, Waterloo East, Charing Cross,
Cannon Street and City Thameslink will accept the key from Spring 2014,
followed by the rest of the Southern Network and London Underground and
buses in Summer 2014."

Is it summer yet?
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
18:55:45 on Mon, 14 Jul 2014, remarked:
It's interesting that Govia are pushing Oyster, when the current
Southern incumbent is pushing ITSO instead.

SN is run by...Govia!

and will be part of the TSGN franchise next year.

Yes, I don't know what I was thinking... So I'm all set, already
having Southern ITSO card, assuming they press on with their current
project.

"Nine London Terminal stations: London Waterloo, London Blackfriars,
Vauxhall, London Bridge, London Victoria, Waterloo East, Charing
Cross, Cannon Street and City Thameslink will accept the key from
Spring 2014, followed by the rest of the Southern Network and London
Underground and buses in Summer 2014."

Is it summer yet?

Autumn next year then!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 03:10:13
on Tue, 15 Jul 2014, remarked:
So I'm all set, already
having Southern ITSO card, assuming they press on with their current
project.

"Nine London Terminal stations: London Waterloo, London Blackfriars,
Vauxhall, London Bridge, London Victoria, Waterloo East, Charing
Cross, Cannon Street and City Thameslink will accept the key from
Spring 2014, followed by the rest of the Southern Network and London
Underground and buses in Summer 2014."

Is it summer yet?

Autumn next year then!

The ITSO on Underground is already late - it was originally supposed to
be 2013[1].

Talking of which, it's gone very quiet on the "Contactless" rollout on
the tube.

[1] From "ITSO news" May 2013:

Summer {that's summer 2103 -ed} will see 21 gated stations within
London start to accept some Southern rail tickets on the key card.
These include Victoria, London Bridge, Purley, Peckham Rye and
Sutton. The rest of this year will see more and more key services
being rolled out ... December is the target date for the
Underground, and London’s ungated and overground rail stations, to
be geared up to accept the key...
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
03:10:13 on Tue, 15 Jul 2014, remarked:
So I'm all set, already
having Southern ITSO card, assuming they press on with their current
project.

"Nine London Terminal stations: London Waterloo, London Blackfriars,
Vauxhall, London Bridge, London Victoria, Waterloo East, Charing
Cross, Cannon Street and City Thameslink will accept the key from
Spring 2014, followed by the rest of the Southern Network and London
Underground and buses in Summer 2014."

Is it summer yet?

Autumn next year then!

The ITSO on Underground is already late - it was originally supposed
to be 2013[1].

Talking of which, it's gone very quiet on the "Contactless" rollout
on the tube.

[1] From "ITSO news" May 2013:

Summer {that's summer 2103 -ed} will see 21 gated stations within
London start to accept some Southern rail tickets on the key card.
These include Victoria, London Bridge, Purley, Peckham Rye and
Sutton. The rest of this year will see more and more key services
being rolled out ... December is the target date for the
Underground, and London_s ungated and overground rail stations, to
be geared up to accept the key...

I joked about using my Bus Pass on the 11 bus yesterday. Driver nodded me
through. No record of the journey at all either time. I thought I'd try out
some of the nice NB4Ls between Liverpool St station and Parliament Street.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 11:46:52 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 09:39:04 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

Talking of which, it's gone very quiet on the "Contactless" rollout on
the tube.

Expect to hear something very soon. The Mayorwatch blog tweeted
yesterday that TfL had given them a briefing on contactless fares. I
assume this is in anticipation on a launch announcement very soon so
that the media / social media don't give out confusing messages!

The big railway doesn't seem very ready for a proper launch yet. I was
ticket inspected on a train last week and the inspector didn't have a
way of checking my contactless card and although he had heard about the
pilot he had never actually seen a membership card before and didn't
know what they looked like. Felt a bit like waving psychic paper about.

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 13:52:27 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
The big railway doesn't seem very ready for a proper launch yet. I was
ticket inspected on a train last week and the inspector didn't have a
way of checking my contactless card and although he had heard about the
pilot he had never actually seen a membership card before and didn't
know what they looked like. Felt a bit like waving psychic paper about.

While I haven't expended a lot of brain power on the issue I can't see
how contactless bank cards can be checked by any railway inspector. On
a bus the inspector obtains a print out from the driver's machine and
checks card numbers presented by passengers against the list. Given
you just tap your bank card on a reader on the rail network and there
is no "write" record on the bank card (AFAIK) then what is there to
check? The transaction data all goes to a "black box" for calculation
of fares and caps.

It's possible I have a knowledge gap about the card technology and
cards can be checked in some way that I'm unaware of.

Perhaps you can't tell by interrogating the card but you could log all
contactless cards that passengers claim to be using and then as part of
the overnight processing bill any cards that were checked by an inspector
but hadn't started a journey with a penalty fare.

Although that would leave the system open to abuse by people with pre-paid
cards, assuming they can be used at all and they aren't registered to
an individual.

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 17:15:08 +0100
David Walters wrote:
Perhaps you can't tell by interrogating the card but you could log all
contactless cards that passengers claim to be using and then as part of
the overnight processing bill any cards that were checked by an inspector
but hadn't started a journey with a penalty fare.

TfL takes money out of your account later on when it thinks its owed it? I can
see that going down like a bucket of cold sick.

--
Spud

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 17:15:08 +0100, David Walters wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 13:52:27 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
The big railway doesn't seem very ready for a proper launch yet. I was
ticket inspected on a train last week and the inspector didn't have a
way of checking my contactless card and although he had heard about the
pilot he had never actually seen a membership card before and didn't
know what they looked like. Felt a bit like waving psychic paper about.

While I haven't expended a lot of brain power on the issue I can't see
how contactless bank cards can be checked by any railway inspector. On
a bus the inspector obtains a print out from the driver's machine and
checks card numbers presented by passengers against the list. Given
you just tap your bank card on a reader on the rail network and there
is no "write" record on the bank card (AFAIK) then what is there to
check? The transaction data all goes to a "black box" for calculation
of fares and caps.

It's possible I have a knowledge gap about the card technology and
cards can be checked in some way that I'm unaware of.

Perhaps you can't tell by interrogating the card but you could log all
contactless cards that passengers claim to be using and then as part of
the overnight processing bill any cards that were checked by an inspector
but hadn't started a journey with a penalty fare.

I've just logged onto the Contactless website and there is now a 'Today's
Travel' section that appears new. Could the gates/validators now be
close enough to online and real-time that an inspector could have an
online reader that checks with a central database, provided you aren't
currently in a tunnel?

In message , at 17:15:08 on
Tue, 15 Jul 2014, David Walters remarked:
It's possible I have a knowledge gap about the card technology and
cards can be checked in some way that I'm unaware of.

I don't think the cards can be checked, but in theory an online gripper
could ask the back-office if they've seen any flying pigs delivering
that card number and an associated touch-in recently.

Perhaps you can't tell by interrogating the card but you could log all
contactless cards that passengers claim to be using and then as part of
the overnight processing bill any cards that were checked by an inspector
but hadn't started a journey with a penalty fare.

Although that would leave the system open to abuse by people with pre-paid
cards, assuming they can be used at all and they aren't registered to
an individual.

And the reverse, which is accidentally giving the gripper the "wrong"
card and hence creating an unresolved journey when in fact you had
touched in with another of your cards.
--
Roland Perry

On 15/07/2014 13:52, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 13:02:04 +0100, David Walters
wrote:

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 11:46:52 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
[snip]

While I haven't expended a lot of brain power on the issue I can't see
how contactless bank cards can be checked by any railway inspector. On
a bus the inspector obtains a print out from the driver's machine and
checks card numbers presented by passengers against the list. Given
you just tap your bank card on a reader on the rail network and there
is no "write" record on the bank card (AFAIK) then what is there to
check? The transaction data all goes to a "black box" for calculation
of fares and caps.

It's possible I have a knowledge gap about the card technology and
cards can be checked in some way that I'm unaware of.


With contactless EMV cards (cEMV - bank cards) you are correct that
nothing can be written back to the card at the point of use (although
that may change in the future. So the only way that a mid-trip ticket
inspection can work is that the 'tap' record from teh inspector's device
is fed back to the back office system.

If there is a cirresponding 'entry tap' for the same card within an
appropriate interval before the inspection then all is well, and the
back office will charge thepassenger the 'normal' fare, subject to any
appropriate caps, discounts, etc. But if there isnt an entry tap, then
the passenger (or more accurately their card) can be charged a
'standard' (aka 'penalty') fare, although this may well require a change
to the Conditions of Carriage.

HTH

Kevin