Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 20:41:16 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

One day someone might reveal all the gory history but I've got no
actual way into the detail these days. I'm merely speculating from the
tiny snippets I read here and elsewhere. Someone sent me this link

http://issuu.com/abelliogroup/docs/o...july___for_int

- take a look at page 5 to get a tiny glimpse of what is being planned
by Abellio Greater Anglia for SEFT / ITSO.

The fifth page of the file, but numbered page 4.

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 20:41:16 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 18:24:48 on
Sat, 9 Aug 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 15:23:53 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

[1] ATOC in October 2010:

"ATOC is co-ordinating train company input into this exercise and
it is hoped that by the end of 2012, all TfL and National Rail
Oyster readers will be able to accept ITSO based Travelcards along
with Oyster and magnetic stripe tickets."

Does this qualify as vapourware?? Paging Mr Corfield!

Not sure why I am being paged. You're in charge of vapourware.

I was wondering if you agreed this time (a project with a waaaay too
optimistic deadline announced).

You keep quoting quotes by others.

They are all people deeply involved in the project, saying when it'll be
ready.

So? I've known for about 18 months that the project was running late.
I'm not exactly bothered that ATOC, since replaced by the Rail
Delivery Group, can't be bothered to update a web page. There are
thousands of web pages with out of date project details on them.

I'm not the least bit surprised that
there have been delays to this stuff - it's complex involved stuff
with probably far, far too many people involved but that's government
for you. The last thing anyone needs is for this sort of technology
to go spectacularly wrong when being used by the public. This will
make people risk averse.

The fact is that the Dft sponsored project to modify the TfL estate to
read ITSO cards has been completed. It was delayed for a number of
reasons including the DfT changing their requirements. As has been
mentioned many times this info was in the public domain via updates in
TfL's quarterly investment reports. The thing that is delaying actual
"switch on" is the need to conclude a commercial agreement with each
TOC before their ITSO cards can be accepted. Again this isn't new
news.

Hmm, four years and counting there. So is it Hip Hip Hooray to the
engineers for getting the gates ready first?

It's of little relevance to me in terms of my rail travel so I'm
neither cheering or crying. I'm not a member of the Public Accounts
Committee or the Transport Select Committee so I don't have the
opportunity to drag in DfT officials and put them through a public
interrogation. One day we might find out the detail of what went
wrong but then again we may not.

ps I'm not sure what's so complicated about negotiations to allow TOCs
who are already selling paper Travelcards load onto an ITSO card they
already issue[1]. Isn't it TfL who have the "agree" to accept them (and
if money is involved in loading them, which way is it flowing?)

[1] SWT, Southern and EMT at the moment, I suppose.

Sales, acceptance and accounting for Travelcards are covered in the
Travelcard agreement which all TOCs are party to. I suspect trying to
modify the Travelcard Agreement just to reflect ITSO based products is
a step too far. Asking all TOCs to be involved and to sign off when
some have no ITSO products on their network and may not do so for
years is just asking for years of delay.

Given each TOC will have their own HOPS and it will need to talk to
Tfl's systems and there will need to be data exchange, sharing,
revenue settlement etc I can see why there may be complications. I
assume TfL and Southern have "broken the back" of ectually
establishing what an agreement looks like. Whether they've got an
agreement that covers all envisaged ITSO products plus extras like
Oyster at Gatwick Airport I couldn't say.

I also suspect that there is a lot of negotiation going on trying to
get Contactless Payment Cards accepted for NR travel within the zones.
That has probably taken priority over any ITSO acceptance agreements.

One day someone might reveal all the gory history but I've got no
actual way into the detail these days. I'm merely speculating from the
tiny snippets I read here and elsewhere. Someone sent me this link

http://issuu.com/abelliogroup/docs/o...july___for_int

- take a look at page 5 to get a tiny glimpse of what is being planned
by Abellio Greater Anglia for SEFT / ITSO.

Interesting. Roland will also be pleased to see the plans for gates at Ely
on page 7. /-)

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 02:33:01
on Sun, 10 Aug 2014, remarked:
http://issuu.com/abelliogroup/docs/o...july___for_int

- take a look at page 5 to get a tiny glimpse of what is being planned
by Abellio Greater Anglia for SEFT / ITSO.

The Bluetooth ticketing option is a new one on me.

Apparently this allows an App on a smartphone to buy e-tickets
wirelessly in a suitably equipped station.

Just what we need, another balkanised technology to add to Oyster, ITSO,
Contactless, barcodes, NFC-on-phone and of course GSM and Wifi already
contacting booking sites from smartphones.

But it has attractions for a station operator because it means people
travelling from there can be constrained to using that TOC's booking
engine and not the one they normally use (unless these facilities are
ruled to be something akin to an "Impartial Point of Sale" allowing
access to all booking engines, which seems unlikely).

Of course, that begs the question of whether these "Bluetooth tickets"
from your friendly local GA station will be available for routes off-GA,
which could be as popularly mundane as Cambridge-King Cross. (ie Kings
Cross, and quite soon all of Thameslink, would have to be fitted out to
accept them).

In the mean time, it's a welcome addition to my V*p**rw*r* list.

Interesting. Roland will also be pleased to see the plans for gates at Ely
on page 7. /-)

The station is so shallow that I struggle to see how they could put
barriers inside, even if they widen the ticket office area. Currently
there are significant people-jams when trains arrive from the south in
the late afternoon, which take ages to clear because of the narrow doors
from the platform and outdoors. (Not helped by the extra footprint used
by passengers with bikes, many of which are retrieved from racks on the
platform and are therefore doomed to make two trips a day through the
barriers).

The commonplace queues inside the ticket office also serve to obstruct
people-flows like that.

From a purely engineering perspective the best place to put the barriers
would be in a little compound on the platform, like they have at
Grantham:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/NRE_GRA/plan.html?rtnloc=GRA

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/ht...s/1964-0030025
..html

Although the peak flow capacity at Ely would still be questionable.

The effect on trainspotters, and people accessing the shop/cafe on the
platform, while not actually travelling, is simply something that's been
caught in the crossfire all over the network
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
02:33:01 on Sun, 10 Aug 2014, remarked:

http://issuu.com/abelliogroup/docs/o...july___for_int

- take a look at page 5 to get a tiny glimpse of what is being planned
by Abellio Greater Anglia for SEFT / ITSO.

The Bluetooth ticketing option is a new one on me.

Apparently this allows an App on a smartphone to buy e-tickets
wirelessly in a suitably equipped station.

Just what we need, another balkanised technology to add to Oyster,
ITSO, Contactless, barcodes, NFC-on-phone and of course GSM and Wifi
already contacting booking sites from smartphones.

But it has attractions for a station operator because it means people
travelling from there can be constrained to using that TOC's booking
engine and not the one they normally use (unless these facilities are
ruled to be something akin to an "Impartial Point of Sale" allowing
access to all booking engines, which seems unlikely).

Of course, that begs the question of whether these "Bluetooth
tickets" from your friendly local GA station will be available for
routes off-GA, which could be as popularly mundane as Cambridge-King
Cross. (ie Kings Cross, and quite soon all of Thameslink, would have
to be fitted out to accept them).

In the mean time, it's a welcome addition to my V*p**rw*r* list.

Interesting. Roland will also be pleased to see the plans for gates at
Ely on page 7. /-)

The station is so shallow that I struggle to see how they could put
barriers inside, even if they widen the ticket office area. Currently
there are significant people-jams when trains arrive from the south
in the late afternoon, which take ages to clear because of the narrow
doors from the platform and outdoors. (Not helped by the extra
footprint used by passengers with bikes, many of which are retrieved
from racks on the platform and are therefore doomed to make two trips
a day through the barriers).

The commonplace queues inside the ticket office also serve to
obstruct people-flows like that.

From a purely engineering perspective the best place to put the
barriers would be in a little compound on the platform, like they
have at Grantham:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/NRE_GRA/plan.html?rtnloc=GRA


http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/ht...64-0030025.htm
l

Although the peak flow capacity at Ely would still be questionable.

The effect on trainspotters, and people accessing the shop/cafe on
the platform, while not actually travelling, is simply something
that's been caught in the crossfire all over the network

I share your concerns.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 22:33:54 on
Sat, 9 Aug 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:

[1] ATOC in October 2010:

"ATOC is co-ordinating train company input into this exercise and
it is hoped that by the end of 2012, all TfL and National Rail
Oyster readers will be able to accept ITSO based Travelcards along
with Oyster and magnetic stripe tickets."

Does this qualify as vapourware?? Paging Mr Corfield!

Not sure why I am being paged. You're in charge of vapourware.

I was wondering if you agreed this time (a project with a waaaay too
optimistic deadline announced).

You keep quoting quotes by others.

They are all people deeply involved in the project, saying when it'll be
ready.

So? I've known for about 18 months that the project was running late.
I'm not exactly bothered that ATOC, since replaced by the Rail
Delivery Group, can't be bothered to update a web page. There are
thousands of web pages with out of date project details on them.

That page (in common with the others I quote on similar matters) aren't
project plans being updated, they are one-off press releases saying
something along the lines of "Aren't we clever, lots of new ticketing
technology just around the corner".

What I'm pointing out is that very often (and especially it seems for
new ticketing) these estimates are wildly optimistic and cannot be
relied upon at all. Other than as a warning that perhaps many of the
other things organisations claim to be in the pipeline are also likely
to be over-optimistic.

I see, for example, that the new Cambridge Science Park station is
already six months late (work started, on schedule, constructing the
access road last month, and the station was supposed to be finished in
time for the timetable change in December 2015. However it's already
slipped to the next timetable change in May 2016.)

ps I'm not sure what's so complicated about negotiations to allow TOCs
who are already selling paper Travelcards load onto an ITSO card they
already issue[1]. Isn't it TfL who have the "agree" to accept them (and
if money is involved in loading them, which way is it flowing?)

[1] SWT, Southern and EMT at the moment, I suppose.

Sales, acceptance and accounting for Travelcards are covered in the
Travelcard agreement which all TOCs are party to. I suspect trying to
modify the Travelcard Agreement just to reflect ITSO based products is
a step too far. Asking all TOCs to be involved and to sign off when
some have no ITSO products on their network and may not do so for
years is just asking for years of delay.

This is something which should be done by ATOC on behalf of all the
TOCs.

Given each TOC will have their own HOPS and it will need to talk to
Tfl's systems and there will need to be data exchange, sharing,
revenue settlement etc I can see why there may be complications.

Again, I don't know what's so different about revenue settlement at the
point of use of a Travelcard (rather than when it's sold). When it's
being used all that needs to be done is validate that it's "in Zone".

Or are you saying that unbeknown to the passengers they are counting how
much the Travelcard is actually (rather than potentially) used on which
routes, and divvying up the revenue retrospectively?

Someone sent me this link

http://issuu.com/abelliogroup/docs/o...july___for_int

That's got one of the worst user-interfaces I've ever seen (not your
fault, obviously).

- take a look at page 5 to get a tiny glimpse of what is being planned
by Abellio Greater Anglia for SEFT / ITSO.

I expect I'm more likely to be using a TSGN ITSO card (for my travel to
London); it'll be interesting to see if those interoperate well with
ITSO gates at places like Cambridge which are operated by GA.

I'm not holding my breath to be able to add a GA (or any other
'foreign') ITSO ticket onto my TSGN card[1], or onto a local Stagecoach
bus ITSO card.

[1] Whatever branding it gets, currently it's Southern "the Key" of
course. Have they decided to brand themselves GTR long term, or is that
just a working title?
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

I see, for example, that the new Cambridge Science Park station is
already six months late (work started, on schedule, constructing the
access road last month, and the station was supposed to be finished
in time for the timetable change in December 2015. However it's
already slipped to the next timetable change in May 2016.)

It's a lot later than that. When we discussing it at the County Rail
Strategy Group we were planning on opening by 2010.

Someone sent me this link

http://issuu.com/abelliogroup/docs/o...july___for_int

That's got one of the worst user-interfaces I've ever seen (not your
fault, obviously).

You get used to it. :-)

It would be nice if they explained what the acronym "STA" used several times
actually means. It's obviously something to do with the direct franchise
award.

- take a look at page 5 to get a tiny glimpse of what is being planned
by Abellio Greater Anglia for SEFT / ITSO.

I expect I'm more likely to be using a TSGN ITSO card (for my travel
to London); it'll be interesting to see if those interoperate well
with ITSO gates at places like Cambridge which are operated by GA.

Since they don't recognise their own tickets at the gates sometimes I
wouldn't be in the least surprised.

Will they ever issue Super Off-Peak Day Travelcards that are recognised by
SWT gates for that matter?

[1] Whatever branding it gets, currently it's Southern "the Key" of
course. Have they decided to brand themselves GTR long term, or is
that just a working title?

They are branding the line from King's Lynn to London as "Great Northern",
surely? Will GTR be any more prominent that LER was?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 04:56:23
on Mon, 11 Aug 2014, remarked:
In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

I see, for example, that the new Cambridge Science Park station is
already six months late (work started, on schedule, constructing the
access road last month, and the station was supposed to be finished
in time for the timetable change in December 2015. However it's
already slipped to the next timetable change in May 2016.)

It's a lot later than that. When we discussing it at the County Rail
Strategy Group we were planning on opening by 2010.

But did that strategy group go public with an "Expected opening date"?

The current station project is the first one to have enough legs to be
able to promise something, I think.

Someone sent me this link

http://issuu.com/abelliogroup/docs/o...july___for_int

That's got one of the worst user-interfaces I've ever seen (not your
fault, obviously).

You get used to it. :-)

And clearly the web designers with monitors the size of 40-inch TVs are
very used to what they see. Someone should insist they do at least some
of their testing on a laptop (the 'two pages side by side' view is
illegible on mine, and the 'full screen page at a time' view took me
half a dozen attempts to find the correct, and yet obscure, icons to
click on.

It would be nice if they explained what the acronym "STA" used several times
actually means. It's obviously something to do with the direct franchise
award.

I'd love to be able to search the publication for "STA", but their awful
display format has rendered my browser's built-in search facility
useless, so there's yet another learning curve to engage their own
search. Which only takes me to the page, not the actual text.

From the context, and the fact they've been awarded a temporary
extension while the DfT gets its act together for new tendering, I
suggest it means "Short Term Agreement".

See also:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/p.../view/greater-
anglia-direct-award-franchise-agreed.html

- take a look at page 5 to get a tiny glimpse of what is being planned
by Abellio Greater Anglia for SEFT / ITSO.

I expect I'm more likely to be using a TSGN ITSO card (for my travel
to London); it'll be interesting to see if those interoperate well
with ITSO gates at places like Cambridge which are operated by GA.

Since they don't recognise their own tickets at the gates sometimes I
wouldn't be in the least surprised.

Will they ever issue Super Off-Peak Day Travelcards that are recognised by
SWT gates for that matter?

[1] Whatever branding it gets, currently it's Southern "the Key" of
course. Have they decided to brand themselves GTR long term, or is
that just a working title?

They are branding the line from King's Lynn to London as "Great Northern",
surely? Will GTR be any more prominent that LER was?

LER was to NXEA, what East Coast Main Line Company Limited is to East
Coast. (A more different name, but still different. Back in the day the
company known "Access", was actually "The joint credit card company
Ltd").

Although Govia Thameslink Railway Ltd appears to be dormant:

http://data.companieshouse.gov.uk/doc/company/07934306

If the Kings Lynn line is to be officially "GN", does this mean that in
a few years when a GTR train pulls into Farringdon on its way north that
it'll be announced as a GN train if heading for Peterborough/Cambridge,
and something else... perhaps Thameslink if heading for Bedford.
Doesn't that rather balkanise the new integrated TSGN franchise?
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at 04:56:23
on Mon, 11 Aug 2014, remarked:
In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

I see, for example, that the new Cambridge Science Park station is
already six months late (work started, on schedule, constructing the
access road last month, and the station was supposed to be finished
in time for the timetable change in December 2015. However it's
already slipped to the next timetable change in May 2016.)

It's a lot later than that. When we discussing it at the County Rail
Strategy Group we were planning on opening by 2010.

But did that strategy group go public with an "Expected opening date"?

Not as firm as that.

The current station project is the first one to have enough legs to be
able to promise something, I think.

Indeed.

Someone sent me this link


http://issuu.com/abelliogroup/docs/o...july___for_int

That's got one of the worst user-interfaces I've ever seen (not your
fault, obviously).

You get used to it. :-)

And clearly the web designers with monitors the size of 40-inch TVs are
very used to what they see. Someone should insist they do at least some
of their testing on a laptop (the 'two pages side by side' view is
illegible on mine, and the 'full screen page at a time' view took me
half a dozen attempts to find the correct, and yet obscure, icons to
click on.

The main problem is getting sued to the scrolling methodology which makes it
perfectly legible on my 12" laptop.

It would be nice if they explained what the acronym "STA" used several
times actually means. It's obviously something to do with the direct
franchise award.

I'd love to be able to search the publication for "STA", but their awful
display format has rendered my browser's built-in search facility
useless, so there's yet another learning curve to engage their own
search. Which only takes me to the page, not the actual text.

It's in most of the articles in the second half of the document. I agree
with you about the bad presentation.

From the context, and the fact they've been awarded a temporary
extension while the DfT gets its act together for new tendering, I
suggest it means "Short Term Agreement".

See also:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/p...greater-anglia
-direct-award-franchise-agreed.html

Which does nothing to answer the question.

- take a look at page 5 to get a tiny glimpse of what is being planned
by Abellio Greater Anglia for SEFT / ITSO.

I expect I'm more likely to be using a TSGN ITSO card (for my travel
to London); it'll be interesting to see if those interoperate well
with ITSO gates at places like Cambridge which are operated by GA.

Since they don't recognise their own tickets at the gates sometimes I
wouldn't be in the least surprised.

Will they ever issue Super Off-Peak Day Travelcards that are recognised
by SWT gates for that matter?

[1] Whatever branding it gets, currently it's Southern "the Key" of
course. Have they decided to brand themselves GTR long term, or is
that just a working title?

They are branding the line from King's Lynn to London as "Great
Northern", surely? Will GTR be any more prominent that LER was?

LER was to NXEA, what East Coast Main Line Company Limited is to East
Coast. (A more different name, but still different. Back in the day the
company known "Access", was actually "The joint credit card company Ltd").

Although Govia Thameslink Railway Ltd appears to be dormant:

http://data.companieshouse.gov.uk/doc/company/07934306

I'd check again in September if I were you.

If the Kings Lynn line is to be officially "GN", does this mean that in
a few years when a GTR train pulls into Farringdon on its way north that
it'll be announced as a GN train if heading for Peterborough/Cambridge,
and something else... perhaps Thameslink if heading for Bedford.
Doesn't that rather balkanise the new integrated TSGN franchise?

They seem to do exactly that from the stakeholder presentation I've seen. It
shows "Gatwick Express", "Southern", "Great Northern" and "Thameslink"
brands as well as "Govia".

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 06:39:25
on Mon, 11 Aug 2014, remarked:
From the context, and the fact they've been awarded a temporary
extension while the DfT gets its act together for new tendering, I
suggest it means "Short Term Agreement".

See also:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/greater-anglia-direct-award-franchise-agreed.html

Which does nothing to answer the question.

"The short-term agreement features a £20m package of improvements which
includes..."
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 06:39:25
on Mon, 11 Aug 2014, remarked:
If the Kings Lynn line is to be officially "GN", does this mean that in
a few years when a GTR train pulls into Farringdon on its way north that
it'll be announced as a GN train if heading for Peterborough/Cambridge,
and something else... perhaps Thameslink if heading for Bedford.
Doesn't that rather balkanise the new integrated TSGN franchise?

They seem to do exactly that from the stakeholder presentation I've seen. It
shows "Gatwick Express", "Southern", "Great Northern" and "Thameslink"
brands as well as "Govia".

I've found this in the trade press:

"The Thameslink brand is to be re-introduced, and Southern and Gatwick
Express brands retained."

No mention of GN, and could encompass using GTR on all the 'Thameslink'
services.

Another possibility is they might use GN temporarily until
through-running starts, but that leaves the Kings Lynn-Kings Cross
services out on a limb.
--
Roland Perry