Paul Corfield wrote in
:


But capping will work against the LT Card price and not One Day
Travelcards. It cannot work to ODTC prices and validity because there
would have to be validators / gates at every National Rail station in
the zonal area. These don't exist so therefore if you lived in an area
exclusively served by NR trains you would have no way in which to
register your trips and therefore contribute to your daily total of
rides that would be capped at the One Day Travelcard price.

It took me a long time to "click" that the LT Card price would be
trigger for the daily cap and not the One Day Travelcard.


I hope this isn't right! If you are going to have capping it has to work
properly - and include converting to a one day bus pass, off-peak
travelcard, etc etc. The One Day LT Card (only cost effective for tube
only users starting a tube journey before 09:30 from Zones 5 or 6 through
to zone 1 who don't have a period travelcard) must be one of the less
frequently used tickets!


If however, the one day travelcard (or hatting, or whatever you called
it, no, it wasn't so posh - capping, yes, that's it) mechanism were in
place, after a few people had entered, you're all now effectively
sharing a one day travelcard for the rest of the day. Or is there some
restriction on multiple entries that might have to swing into place
when this bonneting scheme occurs?

You cannot transfer a One Day Travelcard between users. Neither can you
transfer an Oyster card that has both Travelcard and Pre-Pay validity
on it. Therefore your example is not permitted - each traveller would
have to have an individual card.

A pre-pay only card is transferrable (but obviously not for use on the same
journey). Somebody can use the card for a trip in the morning and somebody
else (presumably) in the same household in the afternoon. When capping
starts this becomes a legitimately transferrable one day travelcard. The
benefit for TfL is that people will not drop it outside the station at the
end of their journey!

David

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:48:50 +0000 (UTC), David Jackman
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote in
:


But capping will work against the LT Card price and not One Day
Travelcards.

I hope this isn't right! If you are going to have capping it has to work
properly - and include converting to a one day bus pass, off-peak
travelcard, etc etc. The One Day LT Card (only cost effective for tube
only users starting a tube journey before 09:30 from Zones 5 or 6 through
to zone 1 who don't have a period travelcard) must be one of the less
frequently used tickets!

I think you will find it is right. I was involved in a long and
detailed discussion on another group and I got myself tied up in all
sorts of logical knots trying to work out how someone from Bromley North
or South Croydon or Norbiton (all ungated NR Stns) would record their NR
trips on their Oyster Card to allow capping to work in the context of
replicating One Day Travelcard validity. I eventually concluded that

(a) someone at TfL has got the spec wrong because NR stations aren't
being equipped with some form of pre-pay validation or
(b) that the current scheme cannot and will not work on the vast
majority of NR lines in London because there is no validation.

The next step back in validity terms is the LT Card because it covers
all TfL direct services plus those limited stretches of interavailable
NR Lines. This therefore helps to explain the push by TfL to expand the
number and range of interavailable NR services (linked partly to the
Overground Network branding).

Although there has not been an official announcement I met someone from
Prestige who confirmed that the LT card pricing and validity would be
used for capping purposes.

You cannot transfer a One Day Travelcard between users. Neither can you
transfer an Oyster card that has both Travelcard and Pre-Pay validity
on it. Therefore your example is not permitted - each traveller would
have to have an individual card.

A pre-pay only card is transferrable (but obviously not for use on the same
journey). Somebody can use the card for a trip in the morning and somebody
else (presumably) in the same household in the afternoon. When capping
starts this becomes a legitimately transferrable one day travelcard. The
benefit for TfL is that people will not drop it outside the station at the
end of their journey!

While I see the benefit in hopefully limiting reselling to touts (who
I'd quite like to see rendered incapable of touting anything for the
remainder of their lives) I think there could be some very interesting
conditions of carriage issues over such a ticket. The TOCs may also have
some things to say about it too! Perhaps why it (capping) is limited to
TfL services in the main?


--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004, Paul Corfield wrote:

But capping will work against the LT Card price and not One Day
Travelcards. It cannot work to ODTC prices and validity because there
would have to be validators / gates at every National Rail station in
the zonal area. These don't exist so therefore if you lived in an area
exclusively served by NR trains you would have no way in which to
register your trips and therefore contribute to your daily total of
rides that would be capped at the One Day Travelcard price.

Correct. However, it would work fine if you only used tubes. Since this
will result in people paying more than they really should, the error is in
favour of TfL, not passengers, and so it shouldn't stop the rollout.


tom

--
Michael Jackson had that idea back in the 80s. There was even a ride at Disneyland.

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004, Paul Corfield wrote:

But capping will work against the LT Card price and not One Day
Travelcards. It cannot work to ODTC prices and validity because there
would have to be validators / gates at every National Rail station in
the zonal area. These don't exist so therefore if you lived in an area
exclusively served by NR trains you would have no way in which to
register your trips and therefore contribute to your daily total of
rides that would be capped at the One Day Travelcard price.

Correct. However, it would work fine if you only used tubes. Since this
will result in people paying more than they really should, the error is in
favour of TfL, not passengers, and so it shouldn't stop the rollout.

How, in the aforementioned situations, would you use a pre-pay anyway, for a
single journey?
--
Ian Tindale

Ian Tindale wrote:
For me, one of the most useful things I was expecting Oyster to offer was
the immediate purchase from home of a one day travelcard.

snip

Oyster seems geared for the people who buy long period seasons, e.g.
annual, rather than for the clued up Londoner who buys a mix of tickets
during the year.

My monthly ticket expires next Wednesday and I am on holiday (half term)
the following week. Ideally I would like to buy two 1 day travel cards
for the Thursday and Friday (my journey starts on a bus so I need to buy
in advance) and a new monthly from the Monday when I get back. But I
cannot buy the one day tickets and my new monthly is not available for
collection until the middle of my holiday!

Oyster is brilliant but it has clearly been designed by the usual IT
geeks and does not yet meet the real needs of Londoners.

Matthew
Regular user of the 65 bus to Richmond, NR to Vauxhall and tube to Brixton

Matthew Rees wrote in message ...
Ian Tindale wrote:
For me, one of the most useful things I was expecting Oyster to offer was
the immediate purchase from home of a one day travelcard.

snip

Oyster seems geared for the people who buy long period seasons, e.g.
annual, rather than for the clued up Londoner who buys a mix of tickets
during the year.

My monthly ticket expires next Wednesday and I am on holiday (half term)
the following week. Ideally I would like to buy two 1 day travel cards
for the Thursday and Friday (my journey starts on a bus so I need to buy
in advance) and a new monthly from the Monday when I get back. But I
cannot buy the one day tickets and my new monthly is not available for
collection until the middle of my holiday!

Oyster is brilliant but it has clearly been designed by the usual IT
geeks and does not yet meet the real needs of Londoners.

Matthew
Regular user of the 65 bus to Richmond, NR to Vauxhall and tube to Brixton

Why can't you buy an Oyster one day ticket? Your sig line suggests you
live in Ham/Petersham, and TfL's website says that you can buy Oyster
one-days (or even monthlies) at the following shops the

CHATFIELDS NEWS P(4202) 46B FRIARS STILE ROAD TW10 6NQ
HAM GENERAL STORES 31 HAM STREET, HAM VILLAGE TW10 7HR
NEWS DIP P(6013) 171 ASHBURNHAM ROAD TW10 7NR

You can also buy paper tickets at:

E B NEWS PLUS 71 HAM STREET TW10 7HW
COSTCUTTER 10 ASHBURNHAM ROAD TW10 7NF

(More details at http://www.tfl-ticketlocator.co.uk/)

The other trick I always used to use (and you can't do this at
newsagents, but you can at rail/Tube stations) was to work out in
advance when I wanted my season ticket to end. Remember that you can
buy ANY number of days from one month to one year; I generally bought
a Travelcard valid for 33 days, to run from the Monday of Week 1 to
the Friday of Week 5. If I knew in advance that I was going on
holiday, then I would buy a Travelcard that was valid for longer; if
it was time to renew the Travelcard six or seven weeks before the
holiday, I bought a Travelcard from that day to the day I was due to
leave (or the day before, if I wasn't going to use trains/Tubes to get
to Heathrow). That way I rarely wasted value by having my Travelcard
valid at a time I wasn't in London. (If I happened to want to travel
somewhere at the weekend after Week 5, I would just get a One Day or
Weekend Travelcard -- it was cheaper than adding extra days to my
period one)

OK, I admit, I don't live in London any more, but all this is still
doable and I'm amazed that everyone (who buys monthlies) doesn't do
it.

On 11/2/04 5:41 pm, in article
, "Alistair Bell"
wrote:

Why can't you buy an Oyster one day ticket? Your sig line suggests you
live in Ham/Petersham, and TfL's website says that you can buy Oyster
one-days (or even monthlies) at the following shops the

There's no such thing as an Oyster one-day. The minimum is 7 days.

See also 'What is an agent?' on TfL's website:

http://www.tfl-ticketlocator.co.uk/a...escription.asp



Steve.

Ian Tindale wrote:

Why can't the system let me use one day travelcards? These are pretty much
the only form of ticket I ever use. It could be quite easy. It could simply
modify the pre-pay paradigm to assess whether your day's worth of pre-pay
fits within or exceeds the cost of a one-day travelcard (off peak or peak,
depending on time of first use) and convert the day's usage to a travelcard
and thus plateau out at the point of charging for the maximum of the
relevant travelcard used for journeys actually taken.

That sounds like capping, which is on the way.

Personally I fail to see why we cannot just walk up to a ticket machine
to customize the properties of the card - so that the first time each
day we use the ticket, the amount for our chosen travelcard is taken off
and the ticket converted there and then for the rest of the day. A lot
of people do not want to pay for singles, and based on the past few(?)
decades people already seem keen enough to pay up front for a
travelcard. (if it was not for the insane queues, for instance at kings
cross)

Capping is probably going to be full of bugs when it first rolls out,
and is bound to have quirks for years on end. Personally I'd like to be
able to specify the ticket before I travel, without having to worry if
it is going to overcharge me - but still have the convenience of not
having to rip the oyster out of the wallet, or standing in an endless
queue at the station.

--
TC

TC wrote in message

Personally I fail to see why we cannot just walk up to a ticket machine
to customize the properties of the card - so that the first time each
day we use the ticket, the amount for our chosen travelcard is taken off
and the ticket converted there and then for the rest of the day.

Then why not just buy a ticket? The advantage of oyster is supposed
to be that you don't have to go to ticket machines or ticket offices
every day.

Capping is probably going to be full of bugs when it first rolls out,
and is bound to have quirks for years on end. Personally I'd like to be
able to specify the ticket before I travel, without having to worry if
it is going to overcharge me - but still have the convenience of not
having to rip the oyster out of the wallet, or standing in an endless
queue at the station.

Rather like congestion charging Oyster is a brave attempt (don't get
me wrong - I'm using it and wish it success) to introduce an IT based
charging system at a time when the 'people tracking' technology isn't
quite good enough to deliver the sophistication ideally needed.

In time there is no reason in principle why the two systems could not
be merged although, not being an IT person, I would not seek to guess
the complexity. However, use might be made of a GPS based detection
system, as proposed for the national congestion-charging proposals.
If this system is going to be fitted to all road vehicles then why not
the railways too? A real personal 'Travel Card' could then detect
whether you're travelling on a train, bus, tube or car and then bill
the appropriate fare (including price caps) or congestion charge to
your bank account. Post-pay not pre-pay, a credit account just like
gas/phone etc debited once a month or whatever the customer prefers.

Civil liberties need not be an issue - unregistered pre-pay cards
could still be available to those who wish to travel incognito, might
just cost a bit more. Or, if you're a bona-fide criminal, you could
just steal one.

umpston wrote:
TC wrote in message


Personally I fail to see why we cannot just walk up to a ticket machine
to customize the properties of the card - so that the first time each
day we use the ticket, the amount for our chosen travelcard is taken off
and the ticket converted there and then for the rest of the day.


Then why not just buy a ticket? The advantage of oyster is supposed
to be that you don't have to go to ticket machines or ticket offices
every day.

I meant walk up to a machine once - to use some configuration options.
These would then be stored on the card, and used when you go through the
barrier. (until you change the settings back)

--
TC