On 17.09.14 20:07, Matthew Dickinson wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 September 2014 19:50:09 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 18:00:44 on Wed, 17

Sep 2014, Michael R N Dolbear remarked:

No doubt the trade press is queuing up to print 'vapourware' stories

from other operators. After all, they've been doing it for TfL for the

last three years.



VISA say:



"Transport authorities across the world are investing in

contactless payment technology to drive down the cost of

ticketing, reduce queues and increase efficiency."

and

"Many transit agencies across Europe are now seeking to build

Visa contactless acceptance into their future ticketing

strategies due to the uniquely compelling nature of the

propositions they represent."



But don't actually mention any examples of who, other than a couple of

uncaptioned photos from TfL.



The first is observable, at least when the technology goes live or even

when the contact is signed.



But they still don't have any examples.



The second is just an aspiration and not observable until something

actually happens.



Such as any(?) other transport operator itself announcing that it's

dipping its toe into this particular bit of vapourware[tm].

--

Roland Perry

TfGM have announced plans for Manchester.

https://www.getmethere.com/web/tfgm_...e#a-card-types

I wonder if Virgin will have problems with Euston - Manchester Piccadilly travellers thinking they can use contactless for the whole journey..?

Travellers will eventually be able to use contactless for the whole
journey. They might even introduce it from the very start to help
increase passenger volumes between the two points. Add a very small
premium to same-day travel using contactless. I'm guessing that
businesses would be happy to pay that.

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
13:32:34 on Wed, 17 Sep 2014, remarked:
Now that CPC is fully rolled out, I expect we'll see more information
about both TfL's position on this issue and also war stories from
disappointed would-be travellers.

One question that occurs to me is whether railcard discounts will be
available with contactless cards if so, how?

Currently a bald "no". From the TfL FAQ:

"If you're eligible for discounted travel, you should carry on using
your existing Oyster card or Oyster photocard.

Discounts can't be added to contactless payment cards. This includes
all National Railcard discounts."

I thought so but wonder why. If the processing is all in the back office why
can't railcards be associated with the accounts there? Or is that another
one of your apparently simple developments we'll have to wait for? :-)

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at
12:07:16 on Wed, 17 Sep 2014, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
TfGM have announced plans for Manchester.

https://www.getmethere.com/web/tfgm_...e#a-card-types

"**In later phases** of get me there,

So that's straight into my vapourware file I'm afraid

you'll be able to use your contactless bank card to travel on
Metrolink by simply using it to touch in and out, without having to
buy a travelcard or load on travel credit first. The cost of all the
journeys you make in a day will be totted up by get me there and
charged to your bank account at the end of the day.

I wonder if Virgin will have problems with Euston - Manchester Piccadilly
travellers thinking they can use contactless for the whole journey..?

If you can get onto one of the Virgin platforms at Manchester as a
result, maybe so. Similarly northbound.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 20:20:54 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, " remarked:
TfGM have announced plans for Manchester.

https://www.getmethere.com/web/tfgm_...e#a-card-types

I wonder if Virgin will have problems with Euston - Manchester Piccadilly travellers thinking they can use contactless for the whole
journey..?

Travellers will eventually be able to use contactless for the whole
journey. They might even introduce it from the very start to help
increase passenger volumes between the two points. Add a very small
premium to same-day travel using contactless. I'm guessing that
businesses would be happy to pay that.

Unless, like mine, the sort of bank cards issued on business accounts
aren't contactless-enabled. I don't know how much that's the banks
arse-covering, or whether businesses are also a bit leery of staff
running around with such transiently auditable ways of grabbing £100's
of pounds from their coffers.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 14:24:48
on Wed, 17 Sep 2014, remarked:
Now that CPC is fully rolled out, I expect we'll see more information
about both TfL's position on this issue and also war stories from
disappointed would-be travellers.

One question that occurs to me is whether railcard discounts will be
available with contactless cards if so, how?

Currently a bald "no". From the TfL FAQ:

"If you're eligible for discounted travel, you should carry on using
your existing Oyster card or Oyster photocard.

Discounts can't be added to contactless payment cards. This includes
all National Railcard discounts."

I thought so but wonder why. If the processing is all in the back office why
can't railcards be associated with the accounts there? Or is that another
one of your apparently simple developments we'll have to wait for? :-)

It is indeed "apparently simple" About two lines of code could apply
such a discount to a suitably registered contactless account.

Maybe they have issues with the idea that people could lend such a card
to another unqualified family member (or even friend) to get cheaper
travel. A bit like a discounted Oyster, I agree, but maybe they already
have too much leakage from those and don't want to compound the felony?
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 20:20:47 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, Mizter T remarked:

On 17/09/2014 19:45, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 17:55:13 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, Mizter T remarked:

This vapourware concept you're so very keen on and contactless in
London - how do you describe it - the gases have now solidified?

It's a product that long conformed to the definition:

"Has been advertised but is not yet available to buy, either because it
is only a concept or because it is still being written or designed."

I'd add the rider that such a thing is especially vapourous if it fails
to meet several announced release dates.

It's taken almost two years to move it on from buses to the rest of the
TfL estate, for example.

It's here and is working right now. That doesn't seem very vapourous to me.

The vapour was the 2+ years that it was "coming soon".

Obviously, once such a product has beaten the odds and actually
appeared, it comes off the vapourware list.

It wasn't heavily advertised to the public at large for years either.
Yes, there were vague, broad time scales on the relevant project page
of the TfL website that slipped, but (apart from people who take joy in
pointing out how rubbish everything is) people weren't waiting on
baited breath for it to appear.

TfL met their announced, specific , solid 'go-live' date of 16 September.

Except Boris promised a date last year, and others promised dates before
that.

Delayed (but working), not vapour.

The delay is what made it vapour.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at
12:03:44 on Wed, 17 Sep 2014, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:

https://technologypartner.visa.com/Download.aspx?id=32

from page 73 onwards...

That has sections which look (without me speed-reading the entire 252
ages this evening) like the ones I earlier said I recalled which showed
that nothing [for example where, when, what for, and how much] can be
*written* to the card by the merchant during a contactless transaction.

Are you familiar enough with the document to be able to confirm or deny
this?
--
Roland Perry

On 17/09/2014 20:42, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 14:24:48
on Wed, 17 Sep 2014, remarked:
[...]
One question that occurs to me is whether railcard discounts will
be available with contactless cards if so, how?

Currently a bald "no". From the TfL FAQ:

"If you're eligible for discounted travel, you should carry on
using your existing Oyster card or Oyster photocard.

Discounts can't be added to contactless payment cards. This
includes all National Railcard discounts."

I thought so but wonder why. If the processing is all in the back
office why
can't railcards be associated with the accounts there? Or is that another
one of your apparently simple developments we'll have to wait for? :-)

It is indeed "apparently simple" About two lines of code could apply
such a discount to a suitably registered contactless account.

You'd need a solid system in place to verify that the payment card
holder really did hold a Railcard.

Then you'd need a solid system in place for RPIs and the like to be
informed that they should also checking for a valid Railcard.

Bit more than two lines of code there.


Maybe they have issues with the idea that people could lend such a card
to another unqualified family member (or even friend) to get cheaper
travel. A bit like a discounted Oyster, I agree, but maybe they already
have too much leakage from those and don't want to compound the felony?

On 17/09/2014 20:45, Roland Perry wrote:
[...]
This vapourware concept you're so very keen on and contactless in
London - how do you describe it - the gases have now solidified?

It's a product that long conformed to the definition:

"Has been advertised but is not yet available to buy, either because it
is only a concept or because it is still being written or designed."

I'd add the rider that such a thing is especially vapourous if it fails
to meet several announced release dates.

It's taken almost two years to move it on from buses to the rest of the
TfL estate, for example.

It's here and is working right now. That doesn't seem very vapourous
to me.

The vapour was the 2+ years that it was "coming soon".

2+ years? Well, if you want to be precise about your vapourware
allegation then at least get it right - contactless on buses was
initially announced for being in time for the Olympics (so July) but
actually arrived in December '12, then contactless on the rest of the
system was initially stated to be coming in "early 2013" ('early' in a
year doesn't have a defined meaning).

So let's say April 2013 - actually arrived September 2014. Difference of
a year and a half.


Obviously, once such a product has beaten the odds and actually
appeared, it comes off the vapourware list.

"Beaten the odds" - what odds?


It wasn't heavily advertised to the public at large for years either.
Yes, there were vague, broad time scales on the relevant project page
of the TfL website that slipped, but (apart from people who take joy
in pointing out how rubbish everything is) people weren't waiting on
baited breath for it to appear.

TfL met their announced, specific , solid 'go-live' date of 16 September.

Except Boris promised a date last year, and others promised dates before
that.

Cite? I'm after a specific announcement of a date.


Delayed (but working), not vapour.

The delay is what made it vapour.

Seems you expend a lot of vapour worrying about these things! I can't
remember hearing anyone else get quite so agitated/excited by it.

On 17/09/2014 20:20, wrote:

On 17.09.14 20:07, Matthew Dickinson wrote:
[...]
TfGM have announced plans for Manchester.

https://www.getmethere.com/web/tfgm_...e#a-card-types

I wonder if Virgin will have problems with Euston - Manchester
Piccadilly travellers thinking they can use contactless for the whole
journey..?

Travellers will eventually be able to use contactless for the whole
journey. They might even introduce it from the very start to help
increase passenger volumes between the two points. Add a very small
premium to same-day travel using contactless. I'm guessing that
businesses would be happy to pay that.

Says who?!