In message , at 19:17:53 on Thu, 9 Oct
2014, Clive Page remarked:
On 09/10/2014 11:32, wrote:
London TravelWatch published yesterday a report on improving surface
access to London's airports. It can be found at:-
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=497&x[0]=news/list

That's an interesting report, with fairly sensible (if fairly obvious)
conclusions. But one item on p6 stuck me as a bit odd, it says:

"London’s Oystercard/contactless payments ticketing system should be
extended to cover journeys on Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect to
and from Heathrow Airport, and on journeys to and from Luton Airport
Parkway and Stansted Airport stations"

I've seen similar (or were they an earlier version of the same) reports
about extending Oyster to those airports. Maybe the roll-out of
contactless payments will trump that, especially for the tourist market
who are unlikely to have Oysters (on arrival at Luton, anyway).

I would have thought that covering journeys to/from Luton Airport (not
merely Airport Parkway) would be the think to aim for. Since the
shuttle bus is no longer free, without this arriving passengers will
have to find cash to pay for the bus, and only then could they use
their Oyster cards for the rail part of the journey. At present if
they can find the (well-hidden) places to buy rail tickets in the
airport they can buy a through ticket.

There's a prominent machine in baggage reclaim. I agree that there
should be better advertised ones landside (eg at the bus station).

The report also says on p27 that the bus is free to those holding rail
tickets - this is very misleading, as it only applies to those who have
bought a rail ticket to/from the *airport*, i.e. which has a higher
fare because it includes the shuttle bus element. All others have to
pay the extra fare, currently £1-60.

In the absence of a Cheap Day Single, I wonder how many tourists
arriving buy the much more expensive Open Single, rather than a Cheap
Day Return and throw the other half away?

Which if those fares would Oyster/CPC charge if you made only a single
journey?
--
Roland Perry

On 10/10/2014 09:33, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 19:17:53 on Thu, 9 Oct
2014, Clive Page remarked:
On 09/10/2014 11:32, wrote:
London TravelWatch published yesterday a report on improving surface
access to London's airports. It can be found at:-
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=497&x[0]=news/list

That's an interesting report, with fairly sensible (if fairly obvious)
conclusions. But one item on p6 stuck me as a bit odd, it says:

"London’s Oystercard/contactless payments ticketing system should be
extended to cover journeys on Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect to
and from Heathrow Airport, and on journeys to and from Luton Airport
Parkway and Stansted Airport stations"

I've seen similar (or were they an earlier version of the same) reports
about extending Oyster to those airports. Maybe the roll-out of
contactless payments will trump that, especially for the tourist market
who are unlikely to have Oysters (on arrival at Luton, anyway).

Acceptance would presumably be Oyster + contactless (in London they go
hand in hand now).

What might be useful is a 'check your contactless card works on public
transport in London' type card scanner at certain places where there are
lots of foreign tourists.


I would have thought that covering journeys to/from Luton Airport (not
merely Airport Parkway) would be the think to aim for. Since the
shuttle bus is no longer free, without this arriving passengers will
have to find cash to pay for the bus, and only then could they use
their Oyster cards for the rail part of the journey. At present if
they can find the (well-hidden) places to buy rail tickets in the
airport they can buy a through ticket.

There's a prominent machine in baggage reclaim. I agree that there
should be better advertised ones landside (eg at the bus station).

Agreed the one in baggage reclaim is pretty obvious.


The report also says on p27 that the bus is free to those holding rail
tickets - this is very misleading, as it only applies to those who
have bought a rail ticket to/from the *airport*, i.e. which has a
higher fare because it includes the shuttle bus element. All others
have to pay the extra fare, currently £1-60.

In the absence of a Cheap Day Single, I wonder how many tourists
arriving buy the much more expensive Open Single, rather than a Cheap
Day Return and throw the other half away?

Sorry, that's not quite right - for journeys *from* Luton Airport - the
Anytime Day Single from Luton Airport to London is £15.50, the Off-peak
Day Return is £16.50. Similarly, at weekends the Super Off-peak Day
Single is £10.40, whilst the Super Off-peak Day Return is £12.00.

However for journeys *to* Luton Airport from London, *on weekdays* the
exact same applies - the Anytime Day Single is cheapest - however on
*weekends* the cheapest option is the Super Off-peak Day Return at £12,
as (for reasons unknown) they don't make the Super Off-peak Day Single
available for journeys starting from London.

(My recollection is that the Super Off-peak Day Return didn't used to be
available from the London end, so you could only take advantage of it by
buying one to start at Luton Airport and just using the return portion.)


Which if those fares would Oyster/CPC charge if you made only a single
journey?

In message , at 10:45:54 on Fri, 10 Oct
2014, Mizter T remarked:

In the absence of a Cheap Day Single, I wonder how many tourists
arriving buy the much more expensive Open Single, rather than a Cheap
Day Return and throw the other half away?

Sorry, that's not quite right - for journeys *from* Luton Airport - the
Anytime Day Single from Luton Airport to London is £15.50, the Off-peak
Day Return is £16.50. Similarly, at weekends the Super Off-peak Day
Single is £10.40, whilst the Super Off-peak Day Return is £12.00.

Things must have changed in the most recent fares manual (I was working
from the Avantix that expired last month, which shows an Anytime Day
Single at £26)

However for journeys *to* Luton Airport from London, *on weekdays* the
exact same applies - the Anytime Day Single is cheapest - however on
*weekends* the cheapest option is the Super Off-peak Day Return at £12,
as (for reasons unknown) they don't make the Super Off-peak Day Single
available for journeys starting from London.

There never used to be a Super Off-peak Day Single at all. But it's
available from London too:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?o...o=1072&tkt=CBB

(My recollection is that the Super Off-peak Day Return didn't used to
be available from the London end, so you could only take advantage of
it by buying one to start at Luton Airport and just using the return
portion.)

When the weekend-only Super Off Peak Day Returns [CBA] were introduced
to where I live on what's now Great Northern they were only into London,
but now there's an outward flow as well.
--
Roland Perry

On 10/10/2014 11:28, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 10:45:54 on Fri, 10 Oct
2014, Mizter T remarked:

In the absence of a Cheap Day Single, I wonder how many tourists
arriving buy the much more expensive Open Single, rather than a Cheap
Day Return and throw the other half away?

Sorry, that's not quite right - for journeys *from* Luton Airport -
the Anytime Day Single from Luton Airport to London is £15.50, the
Off-peak Day Return is £16.50. Similarly, at weekends the Super
Off-peak Day Single is £10.40, whilst the Super Off-peak Day Return is
£12.00.

Things must have changed in the most recent fares manual (I was working
from the Avantix that expired last month, which shows an Anytime Day
Single at £26)

No, it was never that expensive.


However for journeys *to* Luton Airport from London, *on weekdays* the
exact same applies - the Anytime Day Single is cheapest - however on
*weekends* the cheapest option is the Super Off-peak Day Return at
£12, as (for reasons unknown) they don't make the Super Off-peak Day
Single available for journeys starting from London.

There never used to be a Super Off-peak Day Single at all. But it's
available from London too:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?o...o=1072&tkt=CBB

That's only to Luton Airport Parkway, but yes you're quite right there
are Super Off-peak Singles *from London* to Luton Airport too - for some
reason I missed that earlier:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=STP&dest=3667&grpo=1072&tkt=CBB
&
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=STP&dest=3667&grpo=4452&tkt=CBB




(My recollection is that the Super Off-peak Day Return didn't used to
be available from the London end, so you could only take advantage of
it by buying one to start at Luton Airport and just using the return
portion.)

When the weekend-only Super Off Peak Day Returns [CBA] were introduced
to where I live on what's now Great Northern they were only into London,
but now there's an outward flow as well.

Yes, they must have been introduced not so long ago. Annoying that they
didn't exist in the first place.

In message , at 11:56:25 on Fri, 10 Oct 2014,
Mizter T remarked:
When the weekend-only Super Off Peak Day Returns [CBA] were introduced
to where I live on what's now Great Northern they were only into London,
but now there's an outward flow as well.

Yes, they must have been introduced not so long ago. Annoying that they
didn't exist in the first place.

I suspect they were to encourage local yokels to go up to London for the
day, rather than give an unexpected discount to tourists visiting
Cambridge from London.
--
Roland Perry

On 2014-10-10 08:33:06 +0000, Roland Perry said:

I've seen similar (or were they an earlier version of the same) reports
about extending Oyster to those airports. Maybe the roll-out of
contactless payments will trump that, especially for the tourist market
who are unlikely to have Oysters (on arrival at Luton, anyway).

Indeed. While Oyster was definitely a worthwhile product of its time,
I suspect it has a very limited future lifespan - 5 to 10 years maybe -
as banking products replace it.

I would have thought that covering journeys to/from Luton Airport (not
merely Airport Parkway) would be the think to aim for. Since the
shuttle bus is no longer free, without this arriving passengers will
have to find cash to pay for the bus, and only then could they use
their Oyster cards for the rail part of the journey. At present if
they can find the (well-hidden) places to buy rail tickets in the
airport they can buy a through ticket.

There's a prominent machine in baggage reclaim. I agree that there
should be better advertised ones landside (eg at the bus station).

There is a very obvious ticket machine outside right at the bus stop
for the shuttle bus, and the conductor[1] has a ticket machine as well.

[1] Why on earth does it have a conductor when the layovers at each end
are (deliberately) quite long, so there is plenty of time for the
driver to sell tickets? As ISTR you aren't penalised for not buying a
through ticket - the add-on is the same as the bus fare - there is no
need for through rail tickets to be sold on the bus itself.

In the absence of a Cheap Day Single, I wonder how many tourists
arriving buy the much more expensive Open Single, rather than a Cheap
Day Return and throw the other half away?

For what, the bus? brfares.com doesn't list a CDR, just SDS, SDR and
SOR (the latter two bizarrely costing the same, so why the middle one
exists I have no idea).

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

On 10/10/2014 11:40, Neil Williams wrote:

On 2014-10-10 08:33:06 +0000, Roland Perry said:

I've seen similar (or were they an earlier version of the same)
reports about extending Oyster to those airports. Maybe the roll-out
of contactless payments will trump that, especially for the tourist
market who are unlikely to have Oysters (on arrival at Luton, anyway).

Indeed. While Oyster was definitely a worthwhile product of its time, I
suspect it has a very limited future lifespan - 5 to 10 years maybe - as
banking products replace it.

No chance, for the many for whom that's not an option. As Paul has said
in the past on here, the direction for Oyster seems likely to be a mark
II version which is account based rather than card based.


I would have thought that covering journeys to/from Luton Airport
(not merely Airport Parkway) would be the think to aim for. Since
the shuttle bus is no longer free, without this arriving passengers
will have to find cash to pay for the bus, and only then could they
use their Oyster cards for the rail part of the journey. At present
if they can find the (well-hidden) places to buy rail tickets in the
airport they can buy a through ticket.

There's a prominent machine in baggage reclaim. I agree that there
should be better advertised ones landside (eg at the bus station).

There is a very obvious ticket machine outside right at the bus stop for
the shuttle bus, and the conductor[1] has a ticket machine as well.

[1] Why on earth does it have a conductor when the layovers at each end
are (deliberately) quite long, so there is plenty of time for the driver
to sell tickets? As ISTR you aren't penalised for not buying a through
ticket - the add-on is the same as the bus fare - there is no need for
through rail tickets to be sold on the bus itself.

So it can be done in one transaction, rather than two? (i.e. bus + train)

Also the Super Off-peak tickets including the shuttle bus do offer a saving.

On 2014-10-10 11:08:02 +0000, Mizter T said:

No chance, for the many for whom that's not an option. As Paul has said
in the past on here, the direction for Oyster seems likely to be a mark
II version which is account based rather than card based.

Possibly. But I think the banks will start providing far more
contactless pre-paid cards of various types, which will provide a
reasonable alternative. Then no need for TfL to get involved in
handling the money. This might tend more towards 10 years, though.

So it can be done in one transaction, rather than two? (i.e. bus + train)

True, though paying the bus driver doesn't take long, and on a service
with long layovers at both ends doesn't delay anything. Its biggest
problem might I suppose well be people coming out of the airport with
large notes, which I guess is a case for making it free again. I
wonder how profitable it is?

Also the Super Off-peak tickets including the shuttle bus do offer a saving.

I stand corrected, I thought all tickets just had the SDS/SDR/SOR added
on, like PlusBus.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

On 10/10/2014 13:52, Neil Williams wrote:
On 2014-10-10 11:08:02 +0000, Mizter T said:

No chance, for the many for whom that's not an option. As Paul has
said in the past on here, the direction for Oyster seems likely to be
a mark II version which is account based rather than card based.

Possibly. But I think the banks will start providing far more
contactless pre-paid cards of various types, which will provide a
reasonable alternative. Then no need for TfL to get involved in
handling the money. This might tend more towards 10 years, though.

I don't think so. Contactless cards as they are now are 'subject to
status', basic bank account holders don't get them, nor do some others
with regular accounts. My prepaid contactless card (Orange Cash) doesn't
work on TfL either, for I suggest the same reasons (not me, just that
it's prepaid).

There are those who don't have a bank account, and those who can't get a
bank account.

There are children.

There are overseas visitors, many of whom don't have contactless now and
won't in the future.

Just because it works for you (someone who's financially secure and
eminently bankable), doesn't mean it'll work for everyone.


So it can be done in one transaction, rather than two? (i.e. bus + train)

True, though paying the bus driver doesn't take long, and on a service
with long layovers at both ends doesn't delay anything. Its biggest
problem might I suppose well be people coming out of the airport with
large notes, which I guess is a case for making it free again. I wonder
how profitable it is?

Fair question. Though if it went free, then given Luton Airports
drop-off charge for cars & taxis, it could attract 'freeloading'
passengers who want to get to the airport from a free drop-off point or
v.v. (Yes, the fee can be avoided by going to the mid-term car park &
shuttle bus from there, but the Parkway station forecourt might be more
convenient.)


Also the Super Off-peak tickets including the shuttle bus do offer a
saving.

I stand corrected, I thought all tickets just had the SDS/SDR/SOR added
on, like PlusBus.

Seems to be the case for the other (non-Super) tickets, at least in
terms of singles.

For arriving easyjet passengers heading to central London, I think that
(at least for those sans Railcard) the cheapest option is to buy the
ticket they sell onboard.

On 2014-10-10 13:11:48 +0000, Mizter T said:

Fair question. Though if it went free, then given Luton Airports
drop-off charge for cars & taxis, it could attract 'freeloading'
passengers who want to get to the airport from a free drop-off point or
v.v. (Yes, the fee can be avoided by going to the mid-term car park &
shuttle bus from there, but the Parkway station forecourt might be more
convenient.)

I'm not sure the airport would mind, given that they advertise the
mid-term option (though few take them up on it). It's not just a
profit centre, it's also a way of reducing congestion.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.