On 11.10.14 19:47, John Levine wrote:
Except the doors. I think that will be a big sticking point, as
British passengers don't have any discipline and will block, lean on
and hold open doors with impunity.

Are they really worse than the French? Driverless trains work fine in
Paris.

Unions there are also quite strong, AIUI.

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 17:43:52 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2014\10\10 20:46, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 19:07:08 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


I can't speak for anywhere else, but the open air stations in Copenhagen
don't have platform doors

and it's colder than here in the winter

I understood that Copenhagen had taken the decision to install them to
reduce delays from things ending up on the track and the auto
detection system stopping trains unncessarily. I agree that their
climate will provide a challenge to operating platform edge doors in
snowy / cold conditions but then they are more likely to be better
prepared than us to deal with such conditions.


I'm not sure I understand the issue. Why is snow a show-stopper for
PEDs? And would installing heating circuits in the ground for an inch or
so around the actual sweep of the door solve the problem?

You've clearly never had to deal with furious GSMs complaining their
stations are closed because snow hasn't been cleared and then have
complaining train service managers when the cleaners shovel the show
off the platform edge and on to the tracks. Where do you shovel the
snow to when there are PEDs?

I can foresee all sorts of issues with PEDs freezing cold, snow
jamming their movement, sensors being affected by snow and ice, PEDs
being affected by the corrosive chemicals that are used to melt snow.

None of those are insurmountable through design, maintenance and
procedures but then neither is snow and we still, decades on, have
stations and tracks affected by average snowfall. I doubt installing
heating circuits would work either because they will need maintenance,
may fail etc etc.

You need to have an extremely robust design that can cope with a vast
range of weather and conditions and which can also keep working
safely. Can you imagine the comments if trains can run but no one can
on or off then because they jammed with snow or frozen with ice?

Japan is the only place I can think of where they are installing PEDs
on open air stations and where they can have really severe weather
conditions. I'd expect the Japanese to be typically rigorous in
considering all the environments in which their PEDs have to work. By
a quirk Bastille station on metro line 1, now fully automatic, in
Paris is open to the elements so perhaps the Parisians have got
something that works in the cold and snow?

Why would open air stations need floor to ceiling platform edge walls and
doors, assuming they need PEDs at all? Why not a simple waist height fence
and something closer to ticket or mini level crossing gates? That could
all be well clear of any snow, and the gates could have simple (heated)
hinges, not slides, rollers, etc.

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 17:45:55 -0500, Recliner
wrote:


Why would open air stations need floor to ceiling platform edge walls and
doors, assuming they need PEDs at all? Why not a simple waist height fence
and something closer to ticket or mini level crossing gates? That could
all be well clear of any snow, and the gates could have simple (heated)
hinges, not slides, rollers, etc.

Half height is exactly what I'm thinking of at open air stations. All
of the examples I have seen have been solid gates that slide not
something akin to a ticket gate or level crossing. The aim surely is
to provide a solid partition between platform and train through which
nothing can pass except when the "door" is opened.

They need something to slide along like a groove or similar. That has
the potential to become blocked with snow or litter or leaves or a
build up of dirt. If train door runners can become blocked by such
things then so can a PED. I've sat through too many attribution and
fault meetings to be unfamiliar with the sorts of things that can
happen. Again all this can be dealt with but it costs money and takes
time to get right or else the service goes to pot. The more interfaces
you create the more risk you've got to design out or manage very
effectively.

Some (many?) Japanese Shinkansen stations have platform fences without
gates:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/reclin...57633542371720

And there's absolutely no requirement to have sliding PEDs, even if they're
required at all. The aim on a metro system would be to have a simple,
reliable barrier, not an impermeable sealed door. It would be easy to
design a balanced, hinged barrier that was reliable and weatherproof. It
would stop someone (or a pram) accidentally falling on to the track, not
bits of litter blowing on to it.

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 17:43:52 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2014\10\10 20:46, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 19:07:08 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


I can't speak for anywhere else, but the open air stations in
Copenhagen
don't have platform doors

and it's colder than here in the winter

I understood that Copenhagen had taken the decision to install them to
reduce delays from things ending up on the track and the auto
detection system stopping trains unncessarily. I agree that their
climate will provide a challenge to operating platform edge doors in
snowy / cold conditions but then they are more likely to be better
prepared than us to deal with such conditions.


I'm not sure I understand the issue. Why is snow a show-stopper for
PEDs? And would installing heating circuits in the ground for an inch or
so around the actual sweep of the door solve the problem?

You've clearly never had to deal with furious GSMs complaining their
stations are closed because snow hasn't been cleared and then have
complaining train service managers when the cleaners shovel the show
off the platform edge and on to the tracks. Where do you shovel the
snow to when there are PEDs?

I can foresee all sorts of issues with PEDs freezing cold, snow
jamming their movement, sensors being affected by snow and ice, PEDs
being affected by the corrosive chemicals that are used to melt snow.

None of those are insurmountable through design, maintenance and
procedures but then neither is snow and we still, decades on, have
stations and tracks affected by average snowfall. I doubt installing
heating circuits would work either because they will need maintenance,
may fail etc etc.

You need to have an extremely robust design that can cope with a vast
range of weather and conditions and which can also keep working
safely. Can you imagine the comments if trains can run but no one can
on or off then because they jammed with snow or frozen with ice?

Japan is the only place I can think of where they are installing PEDs
on open air stations and where they can have really severe weather
conditions. I'd expect the Japanese to be typically rigorous in
considering all the environments in which their PEDs have to work. By
a quirk Bastille station on metro line 1, now fully automatic, in
Paris is open to the elements so perhaps the Parisians have got
something that works in the cold and snow?

Why would open air stations need floor to ceiling platform edge walls and
doors, assuming they need PEDs at all? Why not a simple waist height
fence
and something closer to ticket or mini level crossing gates? That could
all be well clear of any snow, and the gates could have simple (heated)
hinges, not slides, rollers, etc.

I can only repeat what I have already said

Copenhagen doesn't have platform doors on its open stations

so why would anybody need them?

tim

"tim....." wrote:
"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 17:43:52 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2014\10\10 20:46, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 19:07:08 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


I can't speak for anywhere else, but the open air stations in Copenhagen
don't have platform doors

and it's colder than here in the winter

I understood that Copenhagen had taken the decision to install them to
reduce delays from things ending up on the track and the auto
detection system stopping trains unncessarily. I agree that their
climate will provide a challenge to operating platform edge doors in
snowy / cold conditions but then they are more likely to be better
prepared than us to deal with such conditions.


I'm not sure I understand the issue. Why is snow a show-stopper for
PEDs? And would installing heating circuits in the ground for an inch or
so around the actual sweep of the door solve the problem?

You've clearly never had to deal with furious GSMs complaining their
stations are closed because snow hasn't been cleared and then have
complaining train service managers when the cleaners shovel the show
off the platform edge and on to the tracks. Where do you shovel the
snow to when there are PEDs?

I can foresee all sorts of issues with PEDs freezing cold, snow
jamming their movement, sensors being affected by snow and ice, PEDs
being affected by the corrosive chemicals that are used to melt snow.

None of those are insurmountable through design, maintenance and
procedures but then neither is snow and we still, decades on, have
stations and tracks affected by average snowfall. I doubt installing
heating circuits would work either because they will need maintenance,
may fail etc etc.

You need to have an extremely robust design that can cope with a vast
range of weather and conditions and which can also keep working
safely. Can you imagine the comments if trains can run but no one can
on or off then because they jammed with snow or frozen with ice?

Japan is the only place I can think of where they are installing PEDs
on open air stations and where they can have really severe weather
conditions. I'd expect the Japanese to be typically rigorous in
considering all the environments in which their PEDs have to work. By
a quirk Bastille station on metro line 1, now fully automatic, in
Paris is open to the elements so perhaps the Parisians have got
something that works in the cold and snow?

Why would open air stations need floor to ceiling platform edge walls and
doors, assuming they need PEDs at all? Why not a simple waist height fence
and something closer to ticket or mini level crossing gates? That could
all be well clear of any snow, and the gates could have simple (heated)
hinges, not slides, rollers, etc.

I can only repeat what I have already said

Copenhagen doesn't have platform doors on its open stations

so why would anybody need them?

I agree with you, but the theory seems to be that driverless trains would
be unsafe with open platforms. I don't know why this belief has emerged,
given that the driverless DLR has no PEDs, whether in tunnel or in the
open.

On 2014-10-11 09:45:52 +0000, Recliner said:

The new automated trains will still have an attendant, who may be in charge
of closing the doors.

Will they? Isn't that precisely what the Victoria and Central Lines
have - they just sit up front because it would be very hard for them to
do the doors on a crush loaded train from elsewhere.

I would assume if they want to automate fully, they will automate
fully, doors included, just like say Singapore. If you still have
staff on the train of any kind, you don't save any money.

Or they may be controlled remotely -- if the
driver/guard/attendant currently uses video screens to check them, why
couldn't someone in a remote control room do the same?

I suppose the platform staff could control them as they effectively do
now (by waving a baton). But would discipline be good enough at
outlying stations without staffed platforms?

Incidentally, I remember the fuss the unions made when the Tube moved to
OPO, even without ATO -- they made fearsome forecasts of the inevitable
carnage that would follow. In fact, it's worked very well.

There is a very strong argument that with modern high quality CCTV
equipment driver-operated doors should be rolled out throughout the
rail network, even if you do retain guards for revenue protection and
customer service purposes. It would potentially improve safety and
reduce wasted time at stations.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

On 2014-10-11 14:30:13 +0000, Recliner said:

The ironic thing is that the Northern line needs extra trains in the same
time-scale, but I don't suppose there would be any chance of using
redundant 92TS on that line alongside the slightly newer 95TS. Had those
lines shared a standard design, it would have been feasible.

92 stock would be too big I think. It definitely appears higher and wider.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

On 2014-10-12 10:28:47 +0000, Recliner said:

I agree with you, but the theory seems to be that driverless trains would
be unsafe with open platforms. I don't know why this belief has emerged,
given that the driverless DLR has no PEDs, whether in tunnel or in the
open.

Does anyone know if the DLR has any kind of on-track sensor to stop
trains if someone does fall down?

How often do people get hit by DLR trains?

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

Neil Williams wrote:
On 2014-10-11 14:30:13 +0000, Recliner said:

The ironic thing is that the Northern line needs extra trains in the same
time-scale, but I don't suppose there would be any chance of using
redundant 92TS on that line alongside the slightly newer 95TS. Had those
lines shared a standard design, it would have been feasible.

92 stock would be too big I think. It definitely appears higher and wider.

Not according to the dimensions quoted in Wikipedia: the 92 TS cars are
shown as lighter, narrower, shorter and lower than the 95TS. See
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Londo...und_1992_Stock
and
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Londo...und_1995_Stock

On 2014-10-12 21:43:20 +0000, Recliner said:

Not according to the dimensions quoted in Wikipedia: the 92 TS cars are
shown as lighter, narrower, shorter and lower than the 95TS. See
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Londo...und_1992_Stock
and
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Londo...und_1995_Stock

Maybe lower is the key - are the Central Line platforms lower, allowing
more of the loading gauge to be used?

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.