On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 11:40:01 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
Back in the day I had a somewhat powerful car that could spin the rear
wheels at 60mph on a dry road in 3rd. You could tell it was doing that

V8 TVR by any chance?

--
Spud

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 11:44:02 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
across a patch of dry road. Those are the sort of conditions where
modern hatchbacks with front wheel drive just sit there literally
spinning their wheels.

Rear wheel drive without snow tyres or diff lock is even worse. At least with
FWD you have some semblance of control in snow and ice but with RWD you have
to be colin mccrae even at low speeds as the tail just wags in the direction
of the road camber. And it gets stuck just as easily.

--
Spud

On 2014-10-30 11:24:09 +0000, Roland Perry said:

It seems you are coming round to my point of view, which is that ASC is
a form of ABS+ for emergencies, and not traction control for everyday
use.

Where do you get that idea? You need to drive *any* vehicle with
mechanical sympathy, or it won't last long. Even a top-of-the-range
Range Rover.

Do you regard 4WD as a merely a "safety feature" to get you out of a
skid, and not something to use to increase your traction whenever
required, even if for extended periods?

On a car used on the road, 4WD only has that purpose. You do not need
4WD on the road, it just saps fuel.

I'd be expecting at least half of full power from the engine to be
usefully reaching the wheels.

That isn't going to work if they are slipping. Putting too much power
down is precisely what causes wheels to slip.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

On 2014-10-30 11:40:01 +0000, Roland Perry said:

In fact the first time I took the car to be serviced the chap
congratulated me for having made it that far without putting it in a
ditch! Once you got the hang of it, it was a case of being able to
steer both ends, the front with the wheel and the back with your right
foot.

Just because you can drive in that manner does not mean you should when
on the road, unless needing to do it to enhance control in snow and
ice. By all means book a track day and have a play, though!

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

On 2014-10-30 11:44:02 +0000, Roland Perry said:

The times I found locked diffs the most useful was driving on snow/ice
in the heart of winter where you could pretty much expect never to come
across a patch of dry road. Those are the sort of conditions where
modern hatchbacks with front wheel drive just sit there literally
spinning their wheels.

Most probably, but unless you live in the middle of nowhere (or go to
the middle of nowhere) that's not all that common a use-case.

FWIW, front wheel drive has a big advantage over rear in snow and ice.
One of those situations where cheaper is also better at that time of
year.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 12:15:32 GMT, d wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 11:44:02 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
across a patch of dry road. Those are the sort of conditions where
modern hatchbacks with front wheel drive just sit there literally
spinning their wheels.

Rear wheel drive without snow tyres or diff lock is even worse. At least with
FWD you have some semblance of control in snow and ice but with RWD you have
to be colin mccrae even at low speeds as the tail just wags in the direction
of the road camber. And it gets stuck just as easily.

The other problem is that in most front-engined, RWD cars, more of the
weight is over the front wheels, so the only driven wheels are lightly
loaded.

In message , at 12:11:24 on Thu, 30
Oct 2014, d remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
Back in the day I had a somewhat powerful car that could spin the rear
wheels at 60mph on a dry road in 3rd. You could tell it was doing that

V8 TVR by any chance?

No, something much cheaper - I think it was around £6k.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 12:39:21 on Thu, 30
Oct 2014, Neil Williams remarked:
In fact the first time I took the car to be serviced the chap
congratulated me for having made it that far without putting it in a
ditch! Once you got the hang of it, it was a case of being able to
steer both ends, the front with the wheel and the back with your right foot.

Just because you can drive in that manner does not mean you should when
on the road, unless needing to do it to enhance control in snow and
ice. By all means book a track day and have a play, though!

Doing it on a dry road is good practice for when it's wet/icy.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 12:38:33 on Thu, 30
Oct 2014, Neil Williams remarked:
On 2014-10-30 11:24:09 +0000, Roland Perry said:

It seems you are coming round to my point of view, which is that ASC
is a form of ABS+ for emergencies, and not traction control for
everyday use.

Where do you get that idea? You need to drive *any* vehicle with
mechanical sympathy, or it won't last long. Even a top-of-the-range
Range Rover.

Having had a Range Rover for three or four years, I can't think of any
way in which it's possible to abuse the 4WD.

Do you regard 4WD as a merely a "safety feature" to get you out of a
skid, and not something to use to increase your traction whenever
required, even if for extended periods?

On a car used on the road, 4WD only has that purpose. You do not need
4WD on the road, it just saps fuel.

You need 4WD when driving on a couple of inches of snow. When I had my
Rage Rover it was one of the few vehicles which could make it out of the
village (the others were also 4WD, tractors etc).

I'd be expecting at least half of full power from the engine to be
usefully reaching the wheels.

That isn't going to work if they are slipping. Putting too much power
down is precisely what causes wheels to slip.

A slipping wheel doesn't have zero traction. Especially in the dry.
--
Roland Perry

On 2014-10-30 15:36:29 +0000, Roland Perry said:

Doing it on a dry road is good practice for when it's wet/icy.

True, but it should not be a dry road with other traffic about, as that
increases the risk of an accident for no good reason. Find an empty
car park, or book a track day, or do it on a quiet back street with
nobody around.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.