On Sat, 7 Feb 2015 23:12:10 +0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

" wrote:
On 07.02.15 16:22, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:24:02 on Sat, 7 Feb 2015,
Basil Jet remarked:
The problem with a Holborn-Aldwych cycle route is that unless the
Holborn end is for Piccadilly Line passengers, the round trip
surface-tube-surface will take longer than walking. And don't let us
forget one the main reasons Aldwych closed was it was too expensive
to repair the lifts. Finally, what about the tidal flow of
Boris-bikes - what tooth fairy is going to be shuttling them back to
the other end so that more than a couple of dozen people can use the
route each morning or evening?

It's obvious - you run a train on the other track to take the bikes
back!

Although built for two tracks, there's only one, and also massive
restoration work would be required to bring the second platform at
either end back into use.

Then that's the one the cyclists go in, silly! ;-)

It's not just the platform, it's the whole station tunnel. Add to that
the "closed" platform-tunnel at the Holborn end is significantly less
accessible than the other (which was used until closure in the 90's)

Is there any chance of reactivating Holborn-Aldwych for revenue service?
Or are the lifts the main factor, killing that prospect?

They could, for example, run a crewless train in there.

You'd still have to staff Aldwych, to service minimal passenger demand.
Aldwych is near enough to Covent Garden to be redundant.

From the POV of running a trial of some sort, it is a section which
literally "couldn't get worse" and less staff than before would be
required but there is still the problem IIRC of not having a working
lift.

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 7 Feb 2015 23:12:10 +0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

" wrote:
On 07.02.15 16:22, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:24:02 on Sat, 7 Feb 2015,
Basil Jet remarked:
The problem with a Holborn-Aldwych cycle route is that unless the
Holborn end is for Piccadilly Line passengers, the round trip
surface-tube-surface will take longer than walking. And don't let us
forget one the main reasons Aldwych closed was it was too expensive
to repair the lifts. Finally, what about the tidal flow of
Boris-bikes - what tooth fairy is going to be shuttling them back to
the other end so that more than a couple of dozen people can use the
route each morning or evening?

It's obvious - you run a train on the other track to take the bikes
back!

Although built for two tracks, there's only one, and also massive
restoration work would be required to bring the second platform at
either end back into use.

Then that's the one the cyclists go in, silly! ;-)

It's not just the platform, it's the whole station tunnel. Add to that
the "closed" platform-tunnel at the Holborn end is significantly less
accessible than the other (which was used until closure in the 90's)

Is there any chance of reactivating Holborn-Aldwych for revenue service?
Or are the lifts the main factor, killing that prospect?

They could, for example, run a crewless train in there.

You'd still have to staff Aldwych, to service minimal passenger demand.
Aldwych is near enough to Covent Garden to be redundant.

From the POV of running a trial of some sort, it is a section which
literally "couldn't get worse" and less staff than before would be
required but there is still the problem IIRC of not having a working
lift.

There are probably better places on the network, or elsewhere, to test
driverless trains than the all-underground Aldwych line. In any case, what
is there to test? Driverless trains are well proven, in London and
elsewhere.

On 08.02.15 0:01, Recliner wrote:
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 7 Feb 2015 23:12:10 +0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

" wrote:
On 07.02.15 16:22, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:24:02 on Sat, 7 Feb 2015,
Basil Jet remarked:
The problem with a Holborn-Aldwych cycle route is that unless the
Holborn end is for Piccadilly Line passengers, the round trip
surface-tube-surface will take longer than walking. And don't let us
forget one the main reasons Aldwych closed was it was too expensive
to repair the lifts. Finally, what about the tidal flow of
Boris-bikes - what tooth fairy is going to be shuttling them back to
the other end so that more than a couple of dozen people can use the
route each morning or evening?

It's obvious - you run a train on the other track to take the bikes
back!

Although built for two tracks, there's only one, and also massive
restoration work would be required to bring the second platform at
either end back into use.

Then that's the one the cyclists go in, silly! ;-)

It's not just the platform, it's the whole station tunnel. Add to that
the "closed" platform-tunnel at the Holborn end is significantly less
accessible than the other (which was used until closure in the 90's)

Is there any chance of reactivating Holborn-Aldwych for revenue service?
Or are the lifts the main factor, killing that prospect?

They could, for example, run a crewless train in there.

You'd still have to staff Aldwych, to service minimal passenger demand.
Aldwych is near enough to Covent Garden to be redundant.

From the POV of running a trial of some sort, it is a section which
literally "couldn't get worse" and less staff than before would be
required but there is still the problem IIRC of not having a working
lift.

There are probably better places on the network, or elsewhere, to test
driverless trains than the all-underground Aldwych line. In any case, what
is there to test? Driverless trains are well proven, in London and
elsewhere.


I just don't buy that any longer about Aldwych and Holborn being so
close. I've walked that distance a few times, and they are not that
close in relative terms.

Embankment to Charing Cross is walkable in under 5 minutes, whilst
Cannon Street and Monument are within plain sight of each other at
platform level.

Thus, I am hoping that they eventually reactivate Aldwych.

I suppose the lifts remain an issue, however.

" wrote:
On 08.02.15 0:01, Recliner wrote:
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 7 Feb 2015 23:12:10 +0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

" wrote:
On 07.02.15 16:22, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:24:02 on Sat, 7 Feb 2015,
Basil Jet remarked:
The problem with a Holborn-Aldwych cycle route is that unless the
Holborn end is for Piccadilly Line passengers, the round trip
surface-tube-surface will take longer than walking. And don't let us
forget one the main reasons Aldwych closed was it was too expensive
to repair the lifts. Finally, what about the tidal flow of
Boris-bikes - what tooth fairy is going to be shuttling them back to
the other end so that more than a couple of dozen people can use the
route each morning or evening?

It's obvious - you run a train on the other track to take the bikes
back!

Although built for two tracks, there's only one, and also massive
restoration work would be required to bring the second platform at
either end back into use.

Then that's the one the cyclists go in, silly! ;-)

It's not just the platform, it's the whole station tunnel. Add to that
the "closed" platform-tunnel at the Holborn end is significantly less
accessible than the other (which was used until closure in the 90's)

Is there any chance of reactivating Holborn-Aldwych for revenue service?
Or are the lifts the main factor, killing that prospect?

They could, for example, run a crewless train in there.

You'd still have to staff Aldwych, to service minimal passenger demand.
Aldwych is near enough to Covent Garden to be redundant.

From the POV of running a trial of some sort, it is a section which
literally "couldn't get worse" and less staff than before would be
required but there is still the problem IIRC of not having a working
lift.

There are probably better places on the network, or elsewhere, to test
driverless trains than the all-underground Aldwych line. In any case, what
is there to test? Driverless trains are well proven, in London and
elsewhere.


I just don't buy that any longer about Aldwych and Holborn being so
close. I've walked that distance a few times, and they are not that close
in relative terms.

That's not what I said. It's Covent Garden and Aldwych that are very close
(5 mins walking time?). Temple is almost equally close.


Embankment to Charing Cross is walkable in under 5 minutes, whilst Cannon
Street and Monument are within plain sight of each other at platform level.

Thus, I am hoping that they eventually reactivate Aldwych.

Realistically, no chance.

Since the BBC World Service moved away, what massive transport demand is
there at Aldwych that isn't already served perfectly adequately by buses
and the other LU stations nearby?


I suppose the lifts remain an issue, however.

It was a basket case long before the lifts wore out.

In article

rg, (Recliner) wrote:

" wrote:
On 07.02.15 16:22, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:24:02 on Sat, 7 Feb
2015, Basil Jet remarked:

Is there any chance of reactivating Holborn-Aldwych for revenue service?
Or are the lifts the main factor, killing that prospect?

They could, for example, run a crewless train in there.

You'd still have to staff Aldwych, to service minimal passenger demand.
Aldwych is near enough to Covent Garden to be redundant.

The nearest station to Aldwych is Temple.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sun, 8 Feb 2015 00:36:55 +0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

" wrote:
On 08.02.15 0:01, Recliner wrote:
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 7 Feb 2015 23:12:10 +0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

" wrote:
On 07.02.15 16:22, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:24:02 on Sat, 7 Feb 2015,
Basil Jet remarked:
The problem with a Holborn-Aldwych cycle route is that unless the
Holborn end is for Piccadilly Line passengers, the round trip
surface-tube-surface will take longer than walking. And don't let us
forget one the main reasons Aldwych closed was it was too expensive
to repair the lifts. Finally, what about the tidal flow of
Boris-bikes - what tooth fairy is going to be shuttling them back to
the other end so that more than a couple of dozen people can use the
route each morning or evening?

It's obvious - you run a train on the other track to take the bikes
back!

Although built for two tracks, there's only one, and also massive
restoration work would be required to bring the second platform at
either end back into use.

Then that's the one the cyclists go in, silly! ;-)

It's not just the platform, it's the whole station tunnel. Add to that
the "closed" platform-tunnel at the Holborn end is significantly less
accessible than the other (which was used until closure in the 90's)

Is there any chance of reactivating Holborn-Aldwych for revenue service?
Or are the lifts the main factor, killing that prospect?

They could, for example, run a crewless train in there.

You'd still have to staff Aldwych, to service minimal passenger demand.
Aldwych is near enough to Covent Garden to be redundant.

From the POV of running a trial of some sort, it is a section which
literally "couldn't get worse" and less staff than before would be
required but there is still the problem IIRC of not having a working
lift.

There are probably better places on the network, or elsewhere, to test
driverless trains than the all-underground Aldwych line. In any case, what
is there to test? Driverless trains are well proven, in London and
elsewhere.

There's more than one way of doing "driverless" and the current LU
test facilities don't involve the weak point of the Mk.1 passenger. If
anything goes wrong it doesn't screw up anywhere else. Trials could be
of various things not just driverless operation.


I just don't buy that any longer about Aldwych and Holborn being so
close. I've walked that distance a few times, and they are not that close
in relative terms.

That's not what I said. It's Covent Garden and Aldwych that are very close
(5 mins walking time?). Temple is almost equally close.

If they want to encourage volunteers, all they have to do is set the
Oyster fare to 0.00 for Aldwych to Holborn journeys.


Embankment to Charing Cross is walkable in under 5 minutes, whilst Cannon
Street and Monument are within plain sight of each other at platform level.

Thus, I am hoping that they eventually reactivate Aldwych.

Realistically, no chance.

Probably not as a permanent service.

Since the BBC World Service moved away, what massive transport demand is
there at Aldwych that isn't already served perfectly adequately by buses
and the other LU stations nearby?

That depends on what direction you're coming from and what else might
be closed for the day although the wrong combination might make it
unusable due to the risk of overcrowding. A particular grouping of
closures might make it a suitable substitute for Temple. If Euston can
operate with downward Victoria Line access being via a longer set of
spiral stairs then the less busy Aldwych ought to be able to manage.


I suppose the lifts remain an issue, however.

It was a basket case long before the lifts wore out.

In message , at 19:55:19
on Sat, 7 Feb 2015, remarked:
Aldwych is near enough to Covent Garden to be redundant.

The nearest station to Aldwych is Temple.

But Temple doesn't substitute for Aldwych as far as passengers using the
Piccadilly Line are concerned.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 11:54:07
on Sat, 7 Feb 2015, remarked:
What I haven't been able to establish is whether the tunnel(s)
between the two stations [Holborn and Aldwych] are two bores, or a
larger bore with two tracks in. Traditionally it would be the former.

Definitely two bores, like the rest of the Great Northern, Piccadilly &
Brompton Railway.

Having spent a bit longer looking at websites yesterday, it's single
tunnels but there's a step-plate junction with X-overs at Holborn.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:55:19
on Sat, 7 Feb 2015, remarked:
Aldwych is near enough to Covent Garden to be redundant.

The nearest station to Aldwych is Temple.

But Temple doesn't substitute for Aldwych as far as passengers using the
Piccadilly Line are concerned.

Which is why they'd use Covent Garden.

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 19:55:19 on
Sat, 7 Feb 2015, remarked:
Aldwych is near enough to Covent Garden to be redundant.

The nearest station to Aldwych is Temple.

But Temple doesn't substitute for Aldwych as far as passengers using the
Piccadilly Line are concerned.


However, there will be a fair number of passengers for whom using Temple and
avoiding the central section of the Picadilly Line altogether is definitely
an option; e.g. Thameslink commuters can change at Blackfriars rather than
St Pancras and from 2018 their Great Northern brethren will be able to join
them. Similarly from West London it's an easy change onto the District line
and probably just as fast.

--
DAS