In message , at
21:26:15 on Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Arthur Figgis
remarked:
On 30/03/2015 20:48, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
18:57:41 on Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Arthur Figgis
remarked:
Indeed; even the TfL website isn't sure exactly which foreign or prepay
contactless cards they accept.

Isn't that just posterior covering? Most cards will work, but if they
said "all", then someone would one day turn up with a People's
Republic of Donbass bank card which isn't even recognised by the goat
sellers of the Donbass People's Republic, never mind anywhere else.

Have you actually looked at what they say?

Yes. I rather suspect it is isn't realistic to cover every possibility
currently out there in the wild, so "nearly all" is a safe bet; the
best is the enemy of the good, 80:20 and all that.

Not bothering with contactless because someone might have an obscure
(for London) card would seem silly - did ticket machines ever take
Canadian dollars or Aruban florins anyway?

All American Express contactless payment cards.

Hurrah (although I don't know how many of them actually exist)

Nearly all MasterCard and Maestro contactless payment cards issued
outside the UK are accepted.

The majority of cards that aren't accepted are issued in the USA,
Canada and the Netherlands.

So no details, and pretty insignificant sources of tourists to the UK.

There are also a few other cards that may not be accepted.

Unspecified, again.

If your card is rejected on our services, please contact your card
issuer.

That's a great help to someone on holiday.

Some Visa and V PAY contactless payment cards from countries other
than the UK are not accepted for contactless travel on our services.

Unspecified

Visa expects all its contactless payment cards to be accepted in the
near future.

We are sat on the edge of our seats.

Contactless payment cards issued on other platforms, such as Diners
Club, JCB or Union Pay are not accepted.

Hard luck.
--
Roland Perry

On 30/03/2015 19:58, Richard wrote:

On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 16:35:58 +0100, Mizter T
wrote:

I haven't come across an issue with UK cards in Paris (either RATP or
SNCF machines). They don't take notes though.

RATP *used* to be trouble IMX, but now that everyone has an EMV card
they are fine. Just as well, as without any complaint on here (well,
I suppose this isn't uk.transport.paris) they have closed all/most of
their ticket offices as well, as have Barcelona and Madrid. (Not
forgetting all those networks where you have to go to the top of a
mountain on the Solstice to get the smart card that is then
rechargeable in millions of outlets.)


:-)

Good point re the Paris comparison.

What's the situation re RER stations run by RATP (so in the centre), as
opposed to SNCF run ones - are there still ticket windows? My guess is
that there probably are, but it's a guess.

I've found the SNCF Transilien ticket counters at termini stations
useful places to buy a carnet - they happily take notes too!

Card acceptance in France pre-EMV chip standardisation was definitely
hit and miss - learnt the hard way by almost running out of petrol late
at night, card not accepted at at least two unmanned filling stations,
so we had to wait and strike a deal with a friendly local when they
eventually arrived to fill up themselves - lesson learnt!

On 30/03/2015 20:50, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 17:39:58 on Mon, 30 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked:
The agent at the airport in the case of Stansted Express is StEx
itself - they've a counter after customs for arrivals.

StEx is just a brand of Abellio GA. Are you sure this is an AGA sales
office, and not some sort of travel agent?

Almost certain, yes.

See:
https://www.stanstedexpress.com/about-us/latest-news/2013/01/25/buy-stansted-express-tickets-at-the-airport

There's nothing in that announcement which persuades me it's an
AGA-staffed operation.

Well, if you want to be pedantic (and, come on, you love it!), I didn't
say anything about it being "AGA-staffed"!

On 30/03/2015 21:58, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at
21:26:15 on Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Arthur Figgis
remarked:
[...]
Indeed; even the TfL website isn't sure exactly which foreign or prepay
contactless cards they accept.

Isn't that just posterior covering? Most cards will work, but if they
said "all", then someone would one day turn up with a People's
Republic of Donbass bank card which isn't even recognised by the goat
sellers of the Donbass People's Republic, never mind anywhere else.

Have you actually looked at what they say?

Yes. I rather suspect it is isn't realistic to cover every possibility
currently out there in the wild, so "nearly all" is a safe bet; the
best is the enemy of the good, 80:20 and all that.

Not bothering with contactless because someone might have an obscure
(for London) card would seem silly - did ticket machines ever take
Canadian dollars or Aruban florins anyway?

All American Express contactless payment cards.

Hurrah (although I don't know how many of them actually exist)

Nearly all MasterCard and Maestro contactless payment cards issued
outside the UK are accepted.

The majority of cards that aren't accepted are issued in the USA,
Canada and the Netherlands.

So no details, and pretty insignificant sources of tourists to the UK.

There are also a few other cards that may not be accepted.

Unspecified, again.

If your card is rejected on our services, please contact your card
issuer.

That's a great help to someone on holiday.

Some Visa and V PAY contactless payment cards from countries other
than the UK are not accepted for contactless travel on our services.

Unspecified

Visa expects all its contactless payment cards to be accepted in the
near future.

We are sat on the edge of our seats.

Contactless payment cards issued on other platforms, such as Diners
Club, JCB or Union Pay are not accepted.

Hard luck.


Might as well just give up then, shut down the transport system, forget
about this modern living lark and go back to hunting on the savannah.
Though I imagine there'd still be one or two persistent voices around
the camp fire complaining long into the night about how things don't work...

Roland Perry wrote:
All American Express contactless payment cards.

Hurrah (although I don't know how many of them actually exist)

Nearly all MasterCard and Maestro contactless payment cards issued
outside the UK are accepted.

The majority of cards that aren't accepted are issued in the USA,
Canada and the Netherlands.

So no details, and pretty insignificant sources of tourists to the UK.

There are also a few other cards that may not be accepted.

Unspecified, again.

If your card is rejected on our services, please contact your card
issuer.

That's a great help to someone on holiday.

Some Visa and V PAY contactless payment cards from countries other
than the UK are not accepted for contactless travel on our
services.

Unspecified

Visa expects all its contactless payment cards to be accepted in
the near future.

We are sat on the edge of our seats.

Contactless payment cards issued on other platforms, such as Diners
Club, JCB or Union Pay are not accepted.

Hard luck.

I rather think TfL would garner more complaints than praise
if they paid staff/contractors to go and acquire contactless cards from
every single issuer of the same in every country which issues them or
paid holders of every such card to come to London to test their cards.
And I doubt they'd get very far by asking for contactless cards, linked
to accounts with funds, to be sent to them for test transactions. So I
am unclear what you expect or propose that TfL do to provide better
guidance.

In the meantime it seems to me TfL's guidance is the converse of the way
card issuers don't guarantee their contactless cards will be accepted by
every reader in every country.


--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 23:02:45 +0100, Mizter T
wrote:

What's the situation re RER stations run by RATP (so in the centre), as
opposed to SNCF run ones - are there still ticket windows? My guess is
that there probably are, but it's a guess.

I can't remember... I think I saw one at Etoile. Wikipedia still
claims they have ticket offices. But it can be hard to tell, as the
staff still have the office to sit in and dispense advice rather than
tickets. They'll come out of the office if necessary, I've always
found them very helpful.

I've found the SNCF Transilien ticket counters at termini stations
useful places to buy a carnet - they happily take notes too!

Yes, and useful that many people don't realise that the Transilien
machines can also sell them and head off for the heaving metro station
instead. Useful in a city where after spending millions on a
smartcard, a 7-day ticket still has to start on a Monday!

Card acceptance in France pre-EMV chip standardisation was definitely
hit and miss - learnt the hard way by almost running out of petrol late
at night, card not accepted at at least two unmanned filling stations,
so we had to wait and strike a deal with a friendly local when they
eventually arrived to fill up themselves - lesson learnt!

I've had a few moments like that... with the male urge to see if empty
really does mean empty, and the last last last petrol station only
taking cards.

Richard.

In message , at 23:22:55 on Mon, 30 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked:
Might as well just give up then, shut down the transport system, forget
about this modern living lark and go back to hunting on the savannah.
Though I imagine there'd still be one or two persistent voices around
the camp fire complaining long into the night about how things don't
work...

It would be interesting to know what it is about the cards which stops
them working. A lot of people probably think "contactless" is some sort
of 'standard', but clearly it isn't.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 23:42:12 on Mon, 30 Mar
2015, Robin remarked:
I rather think TfL would garner more complaints than praise
if they paid staff/contractors to go and acquire contactless cards from
every single issuer of the same in every country which issues them or
paid holders of every such card to come to London to test their cards.

They should be able to get "test" cards from all the major issuers (who
are international organisations so a single point of contact for such an
exercise), who have a vested interest in as wide as possible acceptance.

And I doubt they'd get very far by asking for contactless cards, linked
to accounts with funds, to be sent to them for test transactions.

Quite the reverse, I expect the issuers will be testing things like this
too, and it's just part of their [considerable] costs for the
contactless rollout. And in any event the funds successfully taken from
the cards will go straight back to the issuers, as will the unsuccessful
cards.

So I am unclear what you expect or propose that TfL do to provide
better guidance.

Under their noses is a crowd-sourced database of cards-which-work. I
find it hard to believe they aren't using that.

So if they want to know if a particular type of card works, they just
trawl through the 60 million card usages they've had in the last six
months and see if that card is represented within.

In the meantime it seems to me TfL's guidance is the converse of the way
card issuers don't guarantee their contactless cards will be accepted by
every reader in every country.

TfL is hardly "any reader".

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media...015/march/tfl-
named-fastest-growing-contactless-merchant-in-europe
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 23:22:55 +0100
Mizter T wrote:
Might as well just give up then, shut down the transport system, forget
about this modern living lark and go back to hunting on the savannah.

Modern living being people happily allowing TfL to raid their bank accounts
so they can have a slightly-slower-an-less-reliable-than-oyster service?
Bunch of fecking mugs. Still, you can't educate pork and this city is full
of it.

Still, no doubt in 10 years time Oyster will be discontinued along with paper
tickets and we won't have a choice and can be nicely tracked wherever we go
to boot. Though hopefully I'll be well away from this filthy zoo by then.

--
Spud

Roland Perry wrote:
They should be able to get "test" cards from all the major issuers
(who are international organisations so a single point of contact for
such an exercise), who have a vested interest in as wide as possible
acceptance.

When was the issue of cards centralised? Last I heard the standards
were agreed internationally but individual banks etc. remain responsible
for issuing the cards using any of a range of hardware (or agents with
different hardware) from different vendors.

And I doubt they'd get very far by asking for contactless cards,
linked to accounts with funds, to be sent to them for test
transactions.

Quite the reverse, I expect the issuers will be testing things like
this too, and it's just part of their [considerable] costs for the
contactless rollout. And in any event the funds successfully taken
from the cards will go straight back to the issuers, as will the
unsuccessful cards.

I take it by issuers you mean Visa, Mastercard and American Express. If
so, I am unclear how that gets TfL any further forward in dealing with
departures from their standards. Or different standards. (Eg what about
Interac? AIUI most Canadian banks etc used a different contactless
system in Interac Flash. Your comment about TfL's guidance auggests to
me you think TfL ought to do more. I am not clear what - bearing in
mind that not all cards issued in Canada are Interac.)

So I am unclear what you expect or propose that TfL do to provide
better guidance.

Under their noses is a crowd-sourced database of cards-which-work. I
find it hard to believe they aren't using that.

So if they want to know if a particular type of card works, they just
trawl through the 60 million card usages they've had in the last six
months and see if that card is represented within.

I don't see how that gives TfL information about cards which could not
be read.

In the meantime it seems to me TfL's guidance is the converse of the
way card issuers don't guarantee their contactless cards will be
accepted by every reader in every country.

TfL is hardly "any reader".

Indeed. So TfL is at more than average risk of reputational damage if
it gives blanket assurances to users that cards will work and it turns
out some don't; and more than average risk of complaints from issuers if
it suggests that (all) cards from some particular countries, Banks etc
won't work when some (or all) do.
--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid