On 31/03/2015 15:14, Neil Williams wrote:

On 2015-03-31 10:44:56 +0000, Roland Perry said:

What about commuters in London? Will they all migrate their
in-boundary Travelcards to ITSO, or is there a plan to link them to a
contactless card, and have it work throughout the Travelcard-valid
estate?

With monthly capping (and perhaps a move to longer-term capping), who
needs a Travelcard?

Someone who wants their month to not start on the 1st (as monthly
capping might be implemented), or wants an odd-period Travelcard, or
wants to just buy their travel in one go (poss related to a loan from an
employer, or just the way they wish to budget for things).

In message , at 14:18:33 on Tue, 31 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked:

On 31/03/2015 11:42, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 11:23:13 on Tue, 31
Mar 2015, Roland Perry remarked:
[1] Hidden rather a long way down the list of what does and doesn't
work, they suddenly introduce the concept of 'pre-pay' cards.

Pre-paid cards

If you have a prepaid card (issued in the UK or outside the UK), it
may be accepted for travel on our services. Contact your card issuer
for more information

And I should have added that this aspect is much more important for
tourists, because they are aggressively marketed pre-paid cards by
various Bureau-de-Change as a means of delivering "foreign" (to them)
currency such as pounds.

It would be a great disappointment if perhaps the first time they wanted
to use such a card on arrival in the UK (to travel on TfL) that it
didn't work.

This, and other, newsgroups commonly have people moaning about the lack
of acceptance of UK cards by Dutch TVMs, for example.

I don't think pre-paid cards issued for the travel market feature
contactless (those issued either here or abroad). Bear in mind the
revenue risk for an issuer.

The risk is more for the merchant, because unless they are online you
get a Solo/Electron issue of not knowing if the card has sufficient
funds. Although it's not costing TfL any actual cash to transport
someone around for a day, and if the overnight processing reveals that
the card is bust or stolen, then block it from use the next day.

But by all means show me whatever examples there are out there.

My daughter is using my Orange Cash card (which is contactless) as
travel money at the moment; but it has the disadvantage of being in
pounds, not Euros. So there's a 2.75% fee.

(I have looked and not found any - and remember the 'pre-paid card
issue' is a significant part of your argument as per above.)

It's a part that I've highlighted because this thread features
foreigners arriving at Kings Cross/StP.
--
Roland Perry

On 31/03/2015 11:39, Neil Williams wrote:

On 2015-03-30 15:46:47 +0000, Matthew Dickinson said:

SWT and London Midland have recently withdrawn Oyster at their ticket
windows, so they can't value any commission that much.

Possibly confirmation that Oyster is going to become much more niche [...]

Not really. LM offered Oyster at ticket windows at Watford Junction, and
poss at Euston? Nowhere else. SWT only offered Oyster at ticket windows
at a few stations such as Richmond and Wimbledon - it was never anything
near approaching universal.

I've read one suggestion that SWT's change might have been because new
ITSO compatible kit (for use with SEFT) that they're obliged to support
doesn't also support Oyster.

only really for those of limited means, tourists and children, as
everyone else will use contactless instead.

I don't think a separate card for travel only (Oyster, or an Oyster v2)
is ever going to be that niche a concept.

Mizter T wrote:

On 30/03/2015 11:13, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 10:25:09 on Mon,
30 Mar 2015, Theo Markettos remarked:

I always assume that things being sold on trains, aeroplanes and in
baggage reclaim halls are sold to a captive audience at some massive
markup.

I don't think that's true of these kinds of tickets, at least for the
first two, and many of the permanent booths at airports. The prices are
more likely to be published in advance, for you to get the correct
amount of change, etc.

I agree with that - for the UK at least.

Yes, but if you go to Heathrow you might find Heathrow Express is promoted a
wee bit more than the Piccadilly Line. Likewise in other places they may
heavily promote one method over another - be it 'express' trains over the
local bus/train that's almost as quick (cf Gatwick Express v Southern/FCC),
shuttle minibuses over the subway, or a maglev that only goes half the way
(though that was worth doing once as a tourist attraction).

After all Ryanair offering me a transfer to central London are not
doing it out of the goodness of their heart,

They'll be getting a commission, but not necessarily any more than an
agent at the airport who also has to fund extra staff and premises.

The agent at the airport in the case of Stansted Express is StEx itself
- they've a counter after customs for arrivals.

That doesn't nullify your point at all though - as a 'city transfer'
operator getting the airlines to do some of the selling for you is a
plus, with the bonus that even if people don't buy on board they might
have been familiarised with your name, or at least with the options
available to them.

They never present you with a table of options though, it's always 'travel
brand, the superlative way to the city". The best I found was an
airport with three different bus lines with three different durations and
prices - at least there was a list.

and I'd probably end up with an First Anytime
Return on Terravision to Irkutsk Broadway when actually I could get a
Network Card super-offpeak to Liverpool St instead.

Apart from a CDR, the only tickets on that flow are Anytimes.

There's GroupSave, which could be useful, and isn't sold by the
airlines. (There's first class too - ditto. The WebDuo and Business Plus
fares don't count in this instance as they're only available online, not
from the ticket office.)

Who says I want to go to city centre station, or that I'm not buying a
child/senior/soldier/goat ticket instead? Tickets sold this way are
inevitably one-size-fits-all, and frequently it doesn't.

The flip side is places where the airport is just another stop on the public
transport network and tickets are available from every friendly
neighbourhood kiosk - of which there isn't at the airport. (See also
cashless TfL buses at Heathrow)

Indeed; even the TfL website isn't sure exactly which foreign or prepay
contactless cards they accept.

It's because they don't know - some work and some don't, it really does
depend. A customer could ask their bank of course, but I wouldn't rely
on them getting the correct answer.

For the record, I went to a TfL station in December and discovered I'd
forgotten my Oyster. Of the three UK contactless cards in my pocket, only
one worked. None of them were anything out of the ordinary.

The alternative would be for TfL to simply bar all non-UK contactless
payment cards, even though the majority would probably work. What would
a hypothetical Mr R. Perry, head of TfL ticketing, do? (Bear in mind
that 'head of ticketing' is not the same thing as the Commissioner for
Transport, the Mayor, the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the SoS for
Transport!)

TfL ticketing is just complicated, that's the fact of the matter. Whether
it's 'too' complicated, I don't know. However it isn't designed to be
friendly to visitors, at least visitors who want to understand what's going
on rather than just throwing money at TfL and hoping for the best.

Theo

One of t

On Tuesday, 31 March 2015 11:47:48 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:39:11 on Tue, 31
Mar 2015, Neil Williams remarked:
SWT and London Midland have recently withdrawn Oyster at their ticket
windows, so they can't value any commission that much.

Possibly confirmation that Oyster is going to become much more niche -
only really for those of limited means, tourists and children, as
everyone else will use contactless instead.

What about commuters in London? Will they all migrate their in-boundary
Travelcards to ITSO, or is there a plan to link them to a contactless
card, and have it work throughout the Travelcard-valid estate?
--
Roland Perry

One of the next stages of TfL's Future Ticketing Program is to allow in-boundary Travelcards to be loaded onto the contactless back office (presumably this will include TfL's proposed EMV closed loop Oyster replacement).

In message , at 16:25:47 on Tue,
31 Mar 2015, Theo Markettos
remarked:
TfL ticketing is just complicated, that's the fact of the matter. Whether
it's 'too' complicated, I don't know. However it isn't designed to be
friendly to visitors, at least visitors who want to understand what's going
on rather than just throwing money at TfL and hoping for the best.

Often the best thing to do in a strange city is buy the equivalent of an
all-zone[1] travelcard, and go off and enjoy your holiday knowing you'll
be able to travel around without any hassle (or further payment).

[1] fsvo "all"; best if it's the subset you can live with.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at
08:46:13 on Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
SWT and London Midland have recently withdrawn Oyster at their ticket
windows, so they can't value any commission that much.

Possibly confirmation that Oyster is going to become much more niche -
only really for those of limited means, tourists and children, as
everyone else will use contactless instead.

What about commuters in London? Will they all migrate their in-boundary
Travelcards to ITSO, or is there a plan to link them to a contactless
card, and have it work throughout the Travelcard-valid estate?

One of the next stages of TfL's Future Ticketing Program is to allow
in-boundary Travelcards to be loaded onto the contactless back office

That's logical.

Meanwhile those of us deciding whether or not to buy outboundary
travelcards have a complex matrix of decisions based on how much out
particular TOC marks up (or discounts) the price when added to a London
Terminals Ticket, and how that all shifts around when buying off-peak,
or with a railcard discount, and also attempting to predict whether one
will hit any of the caps is travelling ad-hoc.

If they can stick *all* of that into the contactless system and
guarantee to offer the best deal from the numerous potential
combinations, that would be great. But how the ordinary traveller is
supposed to audit that, I have no idea.

And they haven't got a clean track record so far with Oyster capping,
where all they promise[1] turns out to be to cap to the cheapest
Travelcard that would once upon a time have been available for purchase,
and not try to work out if a slightly cheaper travelcard plus one single
from that card's boundary, might have worked out less expensive.

They've perhaps wormed their way out of that corner now by pretty much
having a flat fare for all paper day travelacrds.

[1] Mizter T can correct me if I'm wrong.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 14:11:14 +0100
Mizter T wrote:
I doubt you've used it - works very well, it is ever-so-slightly-slower
to read the card but I don't know where you get the less reliable bit from.

I've seen on a number of occasions cards not work and the person has to try a
second or 3rd time. And it wasn't a card clash issue either.

Still, no doubt in 10 years time Oyster will be discontinued along with paper
tickets and we won't have a choice and can be nicely tracked wherever we go
to boot. Though hopefully I'll be well away from this filthy zoo by then.

Likely still ranting into cyberspace about everything and anything.

You never know.

--
Spud

On 31/03/2015 17:08, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at
08:46:13 on Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
SWT and London Midland have recently withdrawn Oyster at their ticket
windows, so they can't value any commission that much.

Possibly confirmation that Oyster is going to become much more niche -
only really for those of limited means, tourists and children, as
everyone else will use contactless instead.

What about commuters in London? Will they all migrate their in-boundary
Travelcards to ITSO, or is there a plan to link them to a contactless
card, and have it work throughout the Travelcard-valid estate?

One of the next stages of TfL's Future Ticketing Program is to allow
in-boundary Travelcards to be loaded onto the contactless back office

That's logical.

Meanwhile those of us deciding whether or not to buy outboundary
travelcards have a complex matrix of decisions based on how much out
particular TOC marks up (or discounts) the price when added to a London
Terminals Ticket, and how that all shifts around when buying off-peak,
or with a railcard discount, and also attempting to predict whether one
will hit any of the caps is travelling ad-hoc.

If they can stick *all* of that into the contactless system and
guarantee to offer the best deal from the numerous potential
combinations, that would be great. But how the ordinary traveller is
supposed to audit that, I have no idea.

Ha, well I can't really see the above happening!


And they haven't got a clean track record so far with Oyster capping,
where all they promise[1] turns out to be to cap to the cheapest
Travelcard that would once upon a time have been available for purchase,
and not try to work out if a slightly cheaper travelcard plus one single
from that card's boundary, might have worked out less expensive.

They've perhaps wormed their way out of that corner now by pretty much
having a flat fare for all paper day travelacrds.

[1] Mizter T can correct me if I'm wrong.

You are wrong, sorry!

If you do enough journeys within say zones 1&2 to reach a cap, and then
make a journey out to zone 6 (e.g. last day being a tourist in London
then out to Heathrow), you'll be capped for z1&2 and then pay a z3-z6
journey on top.

Since Jan 2015 things are a bit simpler (though I don't approve coz it's
much more expensive for some) - there's now one daily cap for Tube/rail,
rather than peak and off-peak caps.

In message , at 18:51:18 on Tue, 31 Mar
2015, Mizter T remarked:
And they haven't got a clean track record so far with Oyster capping,
where all they promise[1] turns out to be to cap to the cheapest
Travelcard that would once upon a time have been available for purchase,
and not try to work out if a slightly cheaper travelcard plus one single
from that card's boundary, might have worked out less expensive.

They've perhaps wormed their way out of that corner now by pretty much
having a flat fare for all paper day travelacrds.

[1] Mizter T can correct me if I'm wrong.

You are wrong, sorry!

If you do enough journeys within say zones 1&2 to reach a cap, and then
make a journey out to zone 6 (e.g. last day being a tourist in London
then out to Heathrow), you'll be capped for z1&2 and then pay a z3-z6
journey on top.

My impression was that they'd charge you for a Z1-6 travelcard.
--
Roland Perry