Robin9 wrote:
'Recliner[_3_ Wrote:
;149283']http://tinyurl.com/nf6grll

I heard that all LU workers were on strike, not just the train drivers.
How much do the other members of staff earn?

Perhaps you didn't actually read the linked article?

It said, "Tube drivers are also much better paid than some of their other
colleagues who'll be joining them on strike. Station staff get around
£30,000, according to TfI, with others closer to £20,000, while supervisors
earn around £40,000 - still markedly less than what tube drivers get."

No, I didn't read the linked article. I rarely follow links.

So, most other members of staff earn far less than train drivers. Why then is
all the attention on drivers' earnings and none on the £20,000 or so earned
by the unspecified "others? Is this that famous politics-of-envy I keep hearing
about?

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 21:14:05 +0200, Robin9
wrote:


'Recliner[_3_ Wrote:
;149299']Robin9 wrote:-
'Recliner[_3_ Wrote: -
;149283']http://tinyurl.com/nf6grll-

I heard that all LU workers were on strike, not just the train
drivers.
How much do the other members of staff earn?-

Perhaps you didn't actually read the linked article?

It said, "Tube drivers are also much better paid than some of their
other
colleagues who'll be joining them on strike. Station staff get around
£30,000, according to TfI, with others closer to £20,000, while
supervisors
earn around £40,000 - still markedly less than what tube drivers get."

No, I didn't read the linked article. I rarely follow links.

So, most other members of staff earn far less than train drivers. Why
then is
all the attention on drivers' earnings and none on the £20,000 or so
earned
by the unspecified "others? Is this that famous politics-of-envy I keep
hearing about?

People think Tube drivers are very overpaid for the jobs they do. They
don't think the other staff are. And yet it's most often the drivers
who go on strike.

Compare Tube drivers with bus drivers. By almost any measure, the
latter have a much more difficult job, and yet they earn much less.
Also, operating Tube trains is getting easier and easier, as the
trains get more automated, and yet that de-skilling hasn't resulted in
lower Tube driver pay.

It isn't tube workers' fault that bus drivers are under-paid, and there is no
reason tube workers should take a pay cut in sympathy. It really does sound
like the politics-of-envy: ordinary working people daring to earn good money!
Outrageous!

On Saturday, 11 July 2015 21:37:00 UTC+1, Robin9 wrote:
'Recliner[_3_ Wrote:
;149316']On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 21:14:05 +0200, Robin9
wrote:
-

'Recliner[_3_ Wrote: -
;149299']Robin9 wrote:-
'Recliner[_3_ Wrote: -
;149283']http://tinyurl.com/nf6grll-

I heard that all LU workers were on strike, not just the train
drivers.
How much do the other members of staff earn?-

Perhaps you didn't actually read the linked article?

It said, "Tube drivers are also much better paid than some of their
other
colleagues who'll be joining them on strike. Station staff get around
£30,000, according to TfI, with others closer to £20,000, while
supervisors
earn around £40,000 - still markedly less than what tube drivers
get."-

No, I didn't read the linked article. I rarely follow links.

So, most other members of staff earn far less than train drivers. Why
then is
all the attention on drivers' earnings and none on the �20,000 or so
earned
by the unspecified "others? Is this that famous politics-of-envy I keep
hearing about?-

People think Tube drivers are very overpaid for the jobs they do. They
don't think the other staff are. And yet it's most often the drivers
who go on strike.

Compare Tube drivers with bus drivers. By almost any measure, the
latter have a much more difficult job, and yet they earn much less.
Also, operating Tube trains is getting easier and easier, as the
trains get more automated, and yet that de-skilling hasn't resulted in
lower Tube driver pay.

It isn't tube workers' fault that bus drivers are under-paid, and there
is no
reason tube workers should take a pay cut in sympathy. It really does
sound
like the politics-of-envy: ordinary working people daring to earn good
money!
Outrageous!

Exactly! "I have no power and am completely at the whim of my bosses,
but instead of wanting better for everyone I want everyone to be like me".
Complete race to the bottom. How that became excepted wisdom I've no
idea, but it's incredibly depressing.

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

If the day ever comes when the job genuinely is deskilled to
"pressing
a button" as so many dull people seem to believe it consists of
then a
genuine argument about paying peanuts to employ monkeys might be
warranted.

all I'm going to say is that I still can't master driving a train or tube,
after much more emulator practise than I needed to learn to fly a plane.

And that really can be reduced to "press a button"

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Please Help us dispose of unwanted virtual currency:
Bitcoin: 1LzAJBqzoaEudhsZ14W7YrdYSmLZ5m1seZ

Paul Cummins wrote:
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

If the day ever comes when the job genuinely is deskilled to
"pressing
a button" as so many dull people seem to believe it consists of
then a
genuine argument about paying peanuts to employ monkeys might be
warranted.

all I'm going to say is that I still can't master driving a train or tube,
after much more emulator practise than I needed to learn to fly a plane.

And that really can be reduced to "press a button"

I see it takes about six months of training; not trivial, but a lot less
than a professional pilot.

From https://www.how2become.com/careers/l...-train-driver/

Becoming a London Underground train driver requires that you have numerous
qualifications. Most are preliminary qualifications prior to any specific
training regime required to drive a train. Here is a list of qualifications
that you will need to have.

First, you need to be at least 21 years of age to start training to be a
train driver with any entity other than London Underground. In addition,
you will need to have good GCSE grades to show that you have a good
standard of education. While there are really no formal education
requirements to enter this field, having A Level grades will appeal to the
organisation.

You will also need to present your formal application to the company and
then attend a formal training centre. Here, you will sit several aptitude
tests, which will assess your skills, knowledge and proficiency in many
different areas. You will also need to pass a physical examination, an
eyesight examination and drug tests.

In general, becoming a London Underground train driver will require that
you undergo 22 weeks of training. However, if you opt to train outside of
London Underground, you might have to sit through 48 weeks of training.
London Underground has some of the lowest training requirements in the
industry for potential drivers.

Your training will be multifaceted, and will cover hands-on driver training
with an instructor, driving theory and safety training. You will have to
complete a Personal Track Safety Certificate, as well as an NVQ Level 2 in
Rail Transport Operations (Driving) before your training is complete. You
will also need to be familiar with the rules and guidelines of working on
the railroad.

On Saturday, 11 July 2015 20:31:36 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
Paul Cummins wrote:
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

If the day ever comes when the job genuinely is deskilled to
"pressing
a button" as so many dull people seem to believe it consists of
then a
genuine argument about paying peanuts to employ monkeys might be
warranted.

all I'm going to say is that I still can't master driving a train or tube,
after much more emulator practise than I needed to learn to fly a plane.

And that really can be reduced to "press a button"

I see it takes about six months of training; not trivial, but a lot less
than a professional pilot.

From https://www.how2become.com/careers/l...-train-driver/

[snip Internet hearsay]

I don't really understand your point, or the relevance of pilots, or why you copy+pasted all of that
from some random site (a link would have been enough!)

You're ranting on about drivers even after it's been pointed out that it's been an age since ASLEF
have gone on strike. That's why this strike resulted in a shutdown rather than the minuscule service
that's happened a few times over the last few years. You can run some service when you have reduced
staff of different types, but when they all have a grievance they agree on...

I don't work on the Underground, but if you're so jealous of people who do (that's surely what it comes
down to?) there's surely an easy way to get on the button-pushing gravy train yourself? Apply!

It's really odd how if you work in a bank in the City you're creating wealth for the nation, but not if
you're someone transporting thousands of them to their office.

Mark wrote:
On Saturday, 11 July 2015 20:31:36 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
Paul Cummins wrote:
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

If the day ever comes when the job genuinely is deskilled to
"pressing
a button" as so many dull people seem to believe it consists of
then a
genuine argument about paying peanuts to employ monkeys might be
warranted.

all I'm going to say is that I still can't master driving a train or tube,
after much more emulator practise than I needed to learn to fly a plane.

And that really can be reduced to "press a button"

I see it takes about six months of training; not trivial, but a lot less
than a professional pilot.

From https://www.how2become.com/careers/l...-train-driver/

[snip Internet hearsay]

I don't really understand your point, or the relevance of pilots, or why
you copy+pasted all of that
from some random site (a link would have been enough!)

Lots of people, it seems, don't read posted links, and it's in any case
polite to quote relevant extracts. Not everyone is online when reading
usenet. It also wasn't a random link.

The relevance of pilots would be evident if you had read the post I was
replying to.


You're ranting on about drivers even after it's been pointed out that
it's been an age since ASLEF
have gone on strike.

Perhaps you aren't aware that almost 40% of Tube drivers are RMT members,
and they're the ones who frequently go on strike, sometimes to defend the
indefensible.

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to quote any rants of mine? I suspect you're
confusing me with other posters.

That's why this strike resulted in a shutdown rather than the minuscule service
that's happened a few times over the last few years. You can run some
service when you have reduced
staff of different types, but when they all have a grievance they agree on...

I don't work on the Underground, but if you're so jealous of people who
do (that's surely what it comes
down to?) there's surely an easy way to get on the button-pushing gravy
train yourself? Apply!

Why should I be jealous? Have I ever suggested I was? I just don't think
that relatively well-paid people should subject millions of people to such
disruption every time they have any sort of grievance.

I spent a *lot* more than six months in higher education, never joined a
union in my career, almost all of which was in organisations with no
unions, and never even contemplated going on strike in my entire working
life. Being well qualified, I was also well paid. Neither the work, nor the
pay, of driving a tube train or a plane was ever attractive to me.


It's really odd how if you work in a bank in the City you're creating
wealth for the nation, but not if
you're someone transporting thousands of them to their office.

How many times have City workers ever gone on strike? And they aren't all
as well paid as tube drivers. A very small proportion of investment bankers
and top managers do earn huge sums, but most City workers don't.

And, before you start accusing me of being a banker, no I wasn't, and nor
did I ever work in the City.

On Sunday, July 12, 2015 at 1:29:21 AM UTC+1, Mark wrote:
On Saturday, 11 July 2015 20:31:36 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
Paul Cummins wrote:
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

If the day ever comes when the job genuinely is deskilled to
"pressing
a button" as so many dull people seem to believe it consists of
then a
genuine argument about paying peanuts to employ monkeys might be
warranted.

all I'm going to say is that I still can't master driving a train or tube,
after much more emulator practise than I needed to learn to fly a plane.

And that really can be reduced to "press a button"

I see it takes about six months of training; not trivial, but a lot less
than a professional pilot.

From https://www.how2become.com/careers/l...-train-driver/

[snip Internet hearsay]

I don't really understand your point, or the relevance of pilots, or why you copy+pasted all of that
from some random site (a link would have been enough!)

You're ranting on about drivers even after it's been pointed out that it's been an age since ASLEF
have gone on strike. That's why this strike resulted in a shutdown rather than the minuscule service
that's happened a few times over the last few years. You can run some service when you have reduced
staff of different types, but when they all have a grievance they agree on...

I don't work on the Underground, but if you're so jealous of people who do (that's surely what it comes
down to?) there's surely an easy way to get on the button-pushing gravy train yourself? Apply!

It's really odd how if you work in a bank in the City you're creating wealth for the nation, but not if
you're someone transporting thousands of them to their office.

In Nigel's case it is not jealousy. It is a case of "I'm alright Jack". He has made his money, sod the workers trying to make a decent living. He lacks a moral compass.