On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 16:52:51 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
For anyone who thinks that the Tube drivers' high pay, long holidays,
regular strike days off during key sporting events, and short working hours
sounds attractive, this is worth a read:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gene...og/11730449/Wa
t-to-be-a-Tube-driver-Well-you-cant.-Heres-why.html

Doesn't it remind you of the route to becoming a steam engine driver in the
old days?

I'm not sure whats less surprising - the fact that the drivers operate a closed
shop or that LU gave into their demands for it.

--
Spud

On 2015-07-13, y wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 16:52:51 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
For anyone who thinks that the Tube drivers' high pay, long holidays,
regular strike days off during key sporting events, and short working hours
sounds attractive, this is worth a read:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gene...og/11730449/Wa
t-to-be-a-Tube-driver-Well-you-cant.-Heres-why.html

Doesn't it remind you of the route to becoming a steam engine driver in the
old days?

I'm not sure whats less surprising - the fact that the drivers operate a closed
shop or that LU gave into their demands for it.

Total failure to understand what unions are about or why they were
started. And don't bother to say that they have gone too far
(occasionally true but you can say that for any organisation) or that
they are no longer necessary (which is absolute rubbish).

Eric
--
ms fnd in a lbry

On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 18:46:28 +0100
Eric wrote:
On 2015-07-13, y wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 16:52:51 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
For anyone who thinks that the Tube drivers' high pay, long holidays,
regular strike days off during key sporting events, and short working hours
sounds attractive, this is worth a read:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gene...blog/11730449/
a
t-to-be-a-Tube-driver-Well-you-cant.-Heres-why.html

Doesn't it remind you of the route to becoming a steam engine driver in the
old days?

I'm not sure whats less surprising - the fact that the drivers operate a
closed
shop or that LU gave into their demands for it.

Total failure to understand what unions are about or why they were
started. And don't bother to say that they have gone too far

Whats that got to do with operating closed shops?

(occasionally true but you can say that for any organisation) or that
they are no longer necessary (which is absolute rubbish).

Well I've never belonged to one and have done alright. You could argue that
unions are for people too stupid to understand the details in a job contract.

--
Spud

On 2015-07-14, y wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 18:46:28 +0100
Eric wrote:
On 2015-07-13, y wrote:
8 --------

I'm not sure whats less surprising - the fact that the drivers operate
a closed shop or that LU gave into their demands for it.

Total failure to understand what unions are about or why they were
started. And don't bother to say that they have gone too far

Whats that got to do with operating closed shops?

As I said, total failure to understand.

(occasionally true but you can say that for any organisation) or that
they are no longer necessary (which is absolute rubbish).

Well I've never belonged to one and have done alright.

You work in an industry where the "right skills" are a moving target and
there are always shortages, especially of people who have the skills on
paper _and_ enough common sense and experience to use them sensibly. The
majority of my life has been spent as an IT contractor, and I've done
alright too.

However before I did that I did something else, and I was not only a
union member but the site union rep. Now I have taken a salaried IT job
as a fade-to-retirement, and I am once again a union member.

You could argue that unions are for people too stupid to understand the
details in a job contract.

No, unions are for people who are (at least theoretically) interchangeable
and easily replaceable, and therefore have no negotiating power
individually. Understanding the contract, which doesn't exist in a legal
sense anyway, is beside the point, since they won't change it just
for you and the ability to shop around for a better one is extremely
limited. And even the stupid deserve a fair rate of pay.

Eric
--
ms fnd in a lbry

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 20:19:16 +0100
Eric wrote:
On 2015-07-14, y wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 18:46:28 +0100
Eric wrote:
On 2015-07-13, y wrote:
8 --------

I'm not sure whats less surprising - the fact that the drivers operate
a closed shop or that LU gave into their demands for it.

Total failure to understand what unions are about or why they were
started. And don't bother to say that they have gone too far

Whats that got to do with operating closed shops?

As I said, total failure to understand.

Well go on then, explain.

Well I've never belonged to one and have done alright.

You work in an industry where the "right skills" are a moving target and
there are always shortages, especially of people who have the skills on
paper _and_ enough common sense and experience to use them sensibly. The
majority of my life has been spent as an IT contractor, and I've done
alright too.

However before I did that I did something else, and I was not only a
union member but the site union rep. Now I have taken a salaried IT job
as a fade-to-retirement, and I am once again a union member.

Well I've been an IT contractor and a permie and at no time have I felt the
need to join a union. I've walked away from a couple of jobs I didn't like
and gone and got another instead of making a fuss and insisting that the
company change the job spec and rules - which were clearly stated on the
contract before I started - just to suit me.

You could argue that unions are for people too stupid to understand the
details in a job contract.

No, unions are for people who are (at least theoretically) interchangeable
and easily replaceable, and therefore have no negotiating power
individually. Understanding the contract, which doesn't exist in a legal
sense anyway, is beside the point, since they won't change it just

Most people are ultimately replacable. And job contracts ARE legally binding
and if either the employee or the employer breaks the contract in any way it
can lead to dismissal or grounds to the the company to court.

for you and the ability to shop around for a better one is extremely
limited. And even the stupid deserve a fair rate of pay.

The stupid are protected by job contracts and the law. Its not the 19th
century any more.

--
Spud

On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 08:25:21AM +0000, y wrote:

Well I've never belonged to one and have done alright. You could argue that
unions are for people too stupid to understand the details in a job contract.

You could argue that you are a small goose named Cyril. It wouldn't make
it true.

--
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

fdisk format reinstall, doo-dah, doo-dah;
fdisk format reinstall, it's the Windows way

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 13:14:29 +0100
David Cantrell wrote:
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 08:25:21AM +0000, y wrote:

Well I've never belonged to one and have done alright. You could argue that
unions are for people too stupid to understand the details in a job contract.

You could argue that you are a small goose named Cyril. It wouldn't make
it true.

What would it make it then? The law provides legal protection for employees.
Unions haven't been necessary for about 50 years. They're a 19th century
anachromism that the left are wedded to because they like the mass leverage
they bring rather than the job protection.

--
Spud

On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 03:46:23PM +0000, y wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 13:14:29 +0100
David Cantrell wrote:
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 08:25:21AM +0000, y wrote:
Well I've never belonged to one and have done alright. You could argue that
unions are for people too stupid to understand the details in a job contract.
You could argue that you are a small goose named Cyril. It wouldn't make
it true.
What would it make it then?

It would be the ravings of a madman. HTH.

The law provides legal protection for employees.

If you can afford the law when you need it. One of the services that
unions provide for their members is legal help. Effectively an insurance
policy, paid for by their membership fees, that'll provide a specialist
in employment law in the unlikely event that one is needed.

Unions haven't been necessary for about 50 years. They're a 19th century
anachromism that the left are wedded to because they like the mass leverage
they bring rather than the job protection.

You could hardly call me a lefty, but I'm a member of a union, and think
that every employee should be. I've never gone on strike, and I've never
permitted my union to negotiate my pay or working conditions for me. I
have, however, used their legal services.

I reckon that I get pretty good value for my tenner a month.

--
David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic

Erudite is when you make a classical allusion to a
feather. Kinky is when you use the whole chicken.

"David Cantrell" wrote

You could hardly call me a lefty, but I'm a member of a union, and think
that every employee should be. I've never gone on strike, and I've never
permitted my union to negotiate my pay or working conditions for me. I
have, however, used their legal services.

I reckon that I get pretty good value for my tenner a month.

Have you priced legal insurances ?

--
Mike D

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 03:20:24PM +0100, Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
"David Cantrell" wrote
You could hardly call me a lefty, but I'm a member of a union, and think
that every employee should be. I've never gone on strike, and I've never
permitted my union to negotiate my pay or working conditions for me. I
have, however, used their legal services.

I reckon that I get pretty good value for my tenner a month.
Have you priced legal insurances ?

I didn't get as far as pricing them, because all the ones I looked at
didn't offer what I want.

There's more to a union's legal services than getting an attack lawyer
when your relationship with your employer goes south. I have used them
to, for example, look over an employment contract, and to verify that my
changes to an employment contract before I accepted a job correctly
matched what I wanted and didn't leave any irritating loopholes.

--
David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist

You know you're getting old when you fancy the
teenager's parent and ignore the teenager
-- Paul M in uknot