In article , (Richard
Griffin) wrote:

writes:

(Adrian) wrote:
In normal Binary, 16 is 10000, but in BCD each decimal digit is coded
separately in four-bit Binary, so 16 would be 0001 0110 - which is
why
it's called Binary Coded Decimal.

Sorry, my mistake. I forgot about that. I'll have to look at the
programme machine roll and check what is used - I think it just uses
plain binary.

I have the answer, Roger: it is Binary-Coded Decimal.

A few years ago I went on an arranged visit to Cobourg Street Control
Centre and East Finchley Signal Cabin [1] and, being a keen sort of
chap,
was invited to write an essay on the visit for the members' quarterly
journal CHTbulletin.

[1] - A group tour run by Cravens Heritage Trains for some of its
members.

I have pasted into this article the relevant section of that essay [with
some minor clarifications -- Ed]. With reference to the question under
discussion, the answer is in the 5th line from the bottom:

---------- begin quote ------------------------

A word about programme machines. Each of these consists of a roll of
"Melinex" plastic with holes punched in it; as the day progresses, the
roll is spooled from one drum to the other past the reader. Saturday
and
Sunday information is located beyond the end of the weekday information
on the roll, so rewinding is done at 0200 _only_ on Sunday to Thursday
nights. Each row of holes relates to a given movement for one train
(the
machine we were shown was for departures from Edgware).

Around thirty "tracks" are arranged across the width of the roll, each
of
which may or may not have a hole punched in it on any given row; the
presence of a hole in any given track is detected electrically by one of
a row of contacts in the reader, and the Working Timetable information
thus encoded is transferred to the signalling system.

The first holes or tracks impart timing information in binary format
(with the most significant "hours" digit being 8, the machines working
in
a sort of crude double-twelve-hour format), down to half-minutes at
track
eleven. At the other edge of the roll is Train Number information,
whose
available digits are 100, 100, 40, 20, 10, 4, 2 and 1: this explains the
lack of 8s and 9s in Northern Line train numbers! In the central part
of
the roll is a destination code, and the all-important signalling tracks
(e.g., if a hole is punched in track 12 then the signal for "plat 3 to
SB" will clear).

---------- end quote -------------------------

We see that Train Numbers are encoded using bits 200, 100; 40, 20, 10;
and 4, 2, 1.

This allows Train Numbers to be encoded that lie within the range 000 to
377, so long as the digit in the units and tens column is neither an 8
nor a 9. There appears to be no way for the Programme Machine to store
and transmit a Train Number in the 4xx or 7xx series; I'm pretty sure I
asked about this at the time, and was told that as these are special
workings they would be entered manually from Cobourg Street anyway. (I
have a trio of rings of Train Numbers off a scrap 1959ts train, which
are
still set to "736" which was Golders Green to Ruislip depots.)

Yes - anything that is in addition to the normal timetable would be
manually entered by the signalman. This includes the additional paths such
as the 4XX which are shown for stock transfers (and don't run on a regular
basis anyway), the 310 and 330 which are used for the training train, plus
all the other sundry odd paths such as the AVI train, track recording
train etc. In theory, any number from 200 - 777 could be picked for a
path, although I suppose there is a logic to it. The training train
started off as 310, then I added 330 for the Saturday version.

As long as nothing else is running with the same number, then that
shouldn't be a problem. With the additional paths the signalman will
normally fit the trains in as and when to suit the service. E.g. the
training train has a specific timetable with a set time for each location,
but as far as I'm concerned the only relevant times on it are those when
it comes out of Morden depot in the morning and starts from the siding at
Golders Green after meal relief.

With "." being plain Melinex and "O" being a hole in it, we can
translate
the following examples thus:

. . . . . . . . == 0 0 0
O O O O O O O O == 3 7 7
. O . O O O . . == 1 3 4
O . O . . . O O == 2 4 3

(Only the Train Number section of the roll is shown here, with four rows
shown; the roll would scroll upwards or downwards relative to this
article. ISTR the Train Number holes are actually laid out with the
*least*-significant digit at the left.)

The only thing that I may have mis-interpreted is whether a *hole* or a
"non-hole" represents a binary "1"; seeing as I had to inspect my
photograph (currently buried somewhere in clutter-heap!) of the
programme-machine very carefully in order to determine what each track
was for, when writing the essay, I hope that it is unlikely.

When demonstrating the programme roll to trainees, I define the "1" as
being the hole. This matches up with everything. If the "1" is defined as
the space, then that will give all sorts of weird answers! The said roll
at Cobourg St. used to have the ID for each group of holes shown, but that
has now disappeared. I think the roll is from the S1 machine at Edgware
which controls the SB departures.

Roger


HTH,

--
Richard Griffin
http://www.squarewheels.org.uk/
"It seems that, nowadays, there is no NOUN that cannot be VERBED!"
-- Professor Griffin, University of Cambridge

(Thomas Crame) writes:

Richard Griffin wrote:
I have the answer, Roger: it is Binary-Coded Decimal.

So how come I've got an LUL engineering standard, last revised in 2000,
saying the codes are in octal numbering?

Because it's true for the Train Numbers themselves. Train Numbers ARE
Octal, being in base 8: as you know, they run from 0 (theoretically) up
to 7, and then jump straight to 10, and so on. I presume octal notation
was chosen to save having a nearly-redundant fourth bit (for the 8s
column) in two extra tracks in the programme machine.

However, at programme-machine level they are encoded in what I suppose
must be called Binary-Coded Octal. Binary, because a "hole" or a
"no-hole" can only store and provide information in binary form; and
"-Coded Octal" because each digit of the octal number is encoded
separately rather than treating the whole three-digit number as one unit.

Sorry for calling it Binary-Coded Decimal, where the Decimal bit was
misleading.

I'm speculating that using binary-coded digits (rather than pure binary)
may also have been chosen as it would interface better with Positive
Train Identification and its forerunners. Using primitive crew-operated
electromechanical devices to transmit a variable train number,
binary-coded digits would be much easier than pure binary (the latter
requiring either the operator, e.g. motorman, to enter his train number
in Binary (!) or for a computer to be present). The Westinghouse PTI
transmitting-equipment as fitted to 1959/72 stock was very simple.


Rewind time (or end of traffic day) on all LT centralised control
systems is 0300,

Thanks for that.


The programme machine is not fail-safe, and will not cause routes to
clear. What it will do is call routes, the decision as to if they will
clear or not is up to the safety signalling.

Sure. I should re-word the article to make it apparent that a hole for
"plat 3 to SB" doesn't actually clear the signal directly, merely
attempts to pull the relevant lever in the IMR when the electrical
interlocking allows. Is that correct? (Though AIUI, only some of the
Northern Line's ElectroPneumatic IMRs are still in use, others being
solid state replacements -- is this true?)


The other thing I was wondering is how does a programme machine at
Finchley Central call routes for trains departing from Edgware?

I didn't actually say it did, though I can see how you were mis-led. BTW
it was East Finchley (NP) IMR we visited. Roger has the answer I was
going to give.

Cheers,
Richard.
--
http://www.squarewheels.org.uk/

writes:

Yes - anything that is in addition to the normal timetable would be
manually entered by the signalman.

Good; thanks for that.


Richard Griffin wrote:
The only thing that I may have mis-interpreted is whether a *hole* or
a "non-hole" represents a binary "1";

When demonstrating the programme roll to trainees, I define the "1" as
being the hole. This matches up with everything. If the "1" is defined
as the space, then that will give all sorts of weird answers!

Okay. I expect I sat studying my photo of it, trying to work out the
values represented by the Time Coincidence tracks, and seeing which way
round gave sensible answers!


The said roll at Cobourg St. used to have the ID for each group of
holes shown,

As it does in my photo.

In a whirlwind of unusual getting-things-done activity, I've just dug out
the photo, scanned it, and written a little webpage around it. It's only
temporary at present, and it's at:

http://www.squarewheels.org.uk/tmp/programme-machine/

TTFN,
Richard.
--
http://www.squarewheels.org.uk/

The Bakerloo Line numbers start with 201 and complete with 254, although
they can be extended if required.

Stonebridge Park Depot prepares 16 trains for service each night, 13 of
these 201-213 go into service from Stonebridge Park itself, whilst 252, 253
and 254 are prepped at Stonebridge and are then returned to Elephant and
Castle from where they will enter service in the morning

Bakerloo BadBoy

"Lars Elmvang" wrote in message
...
Hi all

I am trying to find out which numbers go where.
So far I have this list, based on some lines:

Bakerloo: Possibly 2xx but not sure
Central: Don't know
Circle: 201-214?
District: 0xx (D-stock-trains) but what about the Wimbledon-Edgware Road
services?
East London: 171-176
Hammersmith & City: Don't know (unless it is 2xx above 214)
Jubilee: 3xx
Metropolitan: 4xx
Northern: 0xx
Piccadilly: 3xx
Victoria: 2xx
Waterloo & City: 201-204
Specials and engineering trains 7xx

How far "off-track" am I?
And can anyone expand the list?
For instance with service-specific numbers (ie. Olympia for District,
Uxbrigde/Ruislip/Rayners Lane for Piccadilly, Mill Hill East/High
Barnet/Edgware/City/Charing Cross for Northern and so on and so
forth...)

Thanks in advance!
--
Lars Elmvang
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

My mailadress is found by only writing the over-exposed domainname once

Richard Griffin wrote in message ...
(Thomas Crame) writes:

Richard Griffin wrote:
I have the answer, Roger: it is Binary-Coded Decimal.

So how come I've got an LUL engineering standard, last revised in 2000,
saying the codes are in octal numbering?

Because it's true for the Train Numbers themselves. Train Numbers ARE
Octal, being in base 8: as you know, they run from 0 (theoretically) up
to 7, and then jump straight to 10, and so on. I presume octal notation
was chosen to save having a nearly-redundant fourth bit (for the 8s
column) in two extra tracks in the programme machine.

However, at programme-machine level they are encoded in what I suppose
must be called Binary-Coded Octal. Binary, because a "hole" or a
"no-hole" can only store and provide information in binary form; and
"-Coded Octal" because each digit of the octal number is encoded
separately rather than treating the whole three-digit number as one unit.

Sorry for calling it Binary-Coded Decimal, where the Decimal bit was
misleading.

I'm speculating that using binary-coded digits (rather than pure binary)
may also have been chosen as it would interface better with Positive
Train Identification and its forerunners. Using primitive crew-operated
electromechanical devices to transmit a variable train number,
binary-coded digits would be much easier than pure binary (the latter
requiring either the operator, e.g. motorman, to enter his train number
in Binary (!) or for a computer to be present). The Westinghouse PTI
transmitting-equipment as fitted to 1959/72 stock was very simple.


Rewind time (or end of traffic day) on all LT centralised control
systems is 0300,

Thanks for that.


The programme machine is not fail-safe, and will not cause routes to
clear. What it will do is call routes, the decision as to if they will
clear or not is up to the safety signalling.

Sure. I should re-word the article to make it apparent that a hole for
"plat 3 to SB" doesn't actually clear the signal directly, merely
attempts to pull the relevant lever in the IMR when the electrical
interlocking allows. Is that correct? (Though AIUI, only some of the
Northern Line's ElectroPneumatic IMRs are still in use, others being
solid state replacements -- is this true?)
I'm trying to remember how the system works (without my cheat sheet)
If it's a scan site with p/mc (which East Finchley is) the P/Mc
contact making will put a feed on the RUM (route stick unit) if the
appropriate YUPR relay is up. The RUM puts a feed to the Lever Op
Board which will give an o/p to the RLM (lever valve) if all other
conditions have been made, so yes. Though I would say "puffed" instead
of pulled, but that's just because it's in remote control.

I believe all the IMRs are still in use, but some of the P/Mc sites at
the south have been converted to other methods of control.


The other thing I was wondering is how does a programme machine at
Finchley Central call routes for trains departing from Edgware?

I didn't actually say it did, though I can see how you were mis-led. BTW
it was East Finchley (NP) IMR we visited. Roger has the answer I was
going to give.

Cheers,
Richard.

In article , Richard Griffin
writes
"-Coded Octal" because each digit of the octal number is encoded
separately rather than treating the whole three-digit number as one unit.

In octal it's the same thing.

Sure. I should re-word the article to make it apparent that a hole for
"plat 3 to SB" doesn't actually clear the signal directly, merely
attempts to pull the relevant lever in the IMR when the electrical
interlocking allows. Is that correct? (Though AIUI, only some of the
Northern Line's ElectroPneumatic IMRs are still in use, others being
solid state replacements -- is this true?)

According to the book I'm looking at right now, the programme machine,
train describer logic, or the control panel push buttons all set a route
relay. The relay might work several signals according to track circuit
occupation; the relevant circuit powers the pneumatics for the IMR.

All the IMR-drive circuits also repeat the mechanical interlocking in
the electrical (that is, if levers 1 and 2 lock each other normal, the
2R circuit will go through a relay driven off 1 being normal and vice
versa). This means that the mechanical interlocking will not be stressed
by the pneumatic drives.

The programme machine roll is shown as 30 data tracks in two sets of 15,
with two control tracks, one punched in every row and one punched only
at the end of the row, between the sets. In the diagram, the left hand
set has 7 tracks used - 4 for the local train describer and 3 for three
possible routes. The right had set is:
- punched for first and last rows
- unused
- 4 tracks for train describer code to be transmitted on
- unused
- 8 tracks for train number, with the 200 bit on the left and the 1 bit
at the edge of the roll.

Other machines either have an interval field (5 holes, for 8,4,2,1, and
0.5 minutes) indicating how long to wait before moving the roll, or a
time code (11 holes, 8h,4h,2h,1h,32m,16m,8m,4m,2m,1m, and 0.5m)
indicating when to act on the remainder of the code.

A photo of a roll, however, doesn't agree with either. On the left side,
the first 7 bits are the destination code in some manner; matching with
the text typed on the roll, it says:
1000010 Morden Golders Grn. via B.
1111100 Morden High Barnet via C.X.
0011001 Kennington Edgware via C.X.
On the right hand side:
- tracks 1 and 2 alternate
- track 5 is punched for the Kennington trains and one other
- tracks 10 to 13 are punched with values that don't correlate with
either the train numbers (which include 9s) or the times. In sequence,
the codes are 7,6,4,3,2,11,10,9,13,1,5,15,14,12,8,7,6,4,3,2

--
Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address

JRS: In article , seen in
news:uk.transport.london, Peter Smyth posted
at Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:00:10 :-

"Thomas Crame" wrote in message
. com...

The circle and H&C have a shared number series, I think.
The picc numbers were in the following series (in 1999):
250 - 257, 260 Cockfosters to Rayners Lane
261 - 267, 270 - 272 Cockfosters to Uxbridge
273 Spare at Acton Town (midday)
274 - 277 Northfields Midday Stablers
300 - 307, 310 - 317, 320 - 327, 330 - 337, 340 - 343 Cockfosters to
Heathrow
347 Acton Town Overnight stabler
351 - 357, 360 - 366 Arnos Grove to Northfields
371 - 373 Cockfosters Midday Stablers

Is there a reason why the don't use numbers ending in 8 or 9?


Trains, as you know, are made up of carriages. Generally, these have a
bogie at each end, two axles on each bogie, and two wheels on each axle
- i.e. eight wheels in all. That is why they count in octal.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms
PAS EXE etc : URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/ - see 00index.htm
Dates - miscdate.htm moredate.htm js-dates.htm pas-time.htm critdate.htm etc.