On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 15:06:13 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

e27002 aurora wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:44:18 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2016\01\14 13:17, Recliner wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:08:41 +0000, e27002 aurora
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 00:14:35 +0000, Steve Fitzgerald
] wrote:

In message
,
Anna Noyd-Dryver writes

Hammersmith is no longer a depot as such. It's just a stabling point.

We have to take trains from Ealing Common to Edgware Road for H&C
services now.


Thanks Steve, I've been meaning to come back to this post - apparently only
6 S7s stable at Hammersmith overnight now.

Really? I didn't realise it was that few now as the other stabling
points haven't changed much.

Last time I was at HMD (for training) there were quite a few trains
about and space for, I would guess maybe 20 to 25 in total.

HMD was very much a C stock depot and once they went everything was
focused at Ealing Common and Upminster (and a couple at Neasden) which
both now provide H&C trains for service.

So, Anna's point seems to have more, and more merit. Unfortunately it
is too late now. The 14tph will remain as terminators.

But at OOC when it opens, which will be more useful than Paddington.

Yeah, but will OOC need 24tph? Would 12 not have been enough, with the
other twelve (or fewer) going to Hammersmith?

At one point there was talk of sending some Crossrail trains to Tring.
That seems to have been quietly set aside. IMHO Sending some
Crossrail trains to Tring and returning the Bakerloo to Watford would
be excellent. Euston's main emphasis should be on InterCity travel.

The Tring proposal seems to have receded because the Euston rebuilding for
HS2 is now planned to be in phases, so platforms for the Tring services
will remain available throughout. No-one is prepared to fund it given that
the need has faded.

With the Met headed for Watford Junction with a 6 tph service, there would
be neither the space not the need for the Bakerloo to return there.

According to one of the cunning plans circulated a couple of years ago
it wouldn't have got past Wembley Central because the DC line would
have been taken over by CrossRail.

OOC will be an important both as an interchange (with HS2 and LO) and as a
destination in its own so it's not a bad idea for Crossrail to terminate
many of its trains there. Also, if Heathrow Express fades away once
Crossrail opens, it might take over the HEx services to the airport,
meaning that 8 tph Crossrail could be headed there.

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 15:06:13 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

e27002 aurora wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:44:18 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2016\01\14 13:17, Recliner wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:08:41 +0000, e27002 aurora
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 00:14:35 +0000, Steve Fitzgerald
] wrote:

In message
,
Anna Noyd-Dryver writes

Hammersmith is no longer a depot as such. It's just a stabling point.

We have to take trains from Ealing Common to Edgware Road for H&C
services now.


Thanks Steve, I've been meaning to come back to this post - apparently only
6 S7s stable at Hammersmith overnight now.

Really? I didn't realise it was that few now as the other stabling
points haven't changed much.

Last time I was at HMD (for training) there were quite a few trains
about and space for, I would guess maybe 20 to 25 in total.

HMD was very much a C stock depot and once they went everything was
focused at Ealing Common and Upminster (and a couple at Neasden) which
both now provide H&C trains for service.

So, Anna's point seems to have more, and more merit. Unfortunately it
is too late now. The 14tph will remain as terminators.

But at OOC when it opens, which will be more useful than Paddington.

Yeah, but will OOC need 24tph? Would 12 not have been enough, with the
other twelve (or fewer) going to Hammersmith?

At one point there was talk of sending some Crossrail trains to Tring.
That seems to have been quietly set aside. IMHO Sending some
Crossrail trains to Tring and returning the Bakerloo to Watford would
be excellent. Euston's main emphasis should be on InterCity travel.

The Tring proposal seems to have receded because the Euston rebuilding for
HS2 is now planned to be in phases, so platforms for the Tring services
will remain available throughout. No-one is prepared to fund it given that
the need has faded.

With the Met headed for Watford Junction with a 6 tph service, there would
be neither the space not the need for the Bakerloo to return there.

According to one of the cunning plans circulated a couple of years ago
it wouldn't have got past Wembley Central because the DC line would
have been taken over by CrossRail.

The only cunning plan for Crossrail that I've heard of on that route was
for it to share the slow line to Tring, not take over the DC line. Everyone
has known, seemingly forever, that the Met would be going to the Junction,
and now it finally is, so what would Crossrail do at Watford? And how
would Crossrail get to Wembley, if not on the slow line? Why would it then
switch to the DC line?

On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 16:22:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 15:06:13 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

e27002 aurora wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:44:18 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2016\01\14 13:17, Recliner wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:08:41 +0000, e27002 aurora
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 00:14:35 +0000, Steve Fitzgerald
] wrote:

In message
,
Anna Noyd-Dryver writes

Hammersmith is no longer a depot as such. It's just a stabling point.

We have to take trains from Ealing Common to Edgware Road for H&C
services now.


Thanks Steve, I've been meaning to come back to this post - apparently only
6 S7s stable at Hammersmith overnight now.

Really? I didn't realise it was that few now as the other stabling
points haven't changed much.

Last time I was at HMD (for training) there were quite a few trains
about and space for, I would guess maybe 20 to 25 in total.

HMD was very much a C stock depot and once they went everything was
focused at Ealing Common and Upminster (and a couple at Neasden) which
both now provide H&C trains for service.

So, Anna's point seems to have more, and more merit. Unfortunately it
is too late now. The 14tph will remain as terminators.

But at OOC when it opens, which will be more useful than Paddington.

Yeah, but will OOC need 24tph? Would 12 not have been enough, with the
other twelve (or fewer) going to Hammersmith?

At one point there was talk of sending some Crossrail trains to Tring.
That seems to have been quietly set aside. IMHO Sending some
Crossrail trains to Tring and returning the Bakerloo to Watford would
be excellent. Euston's main emphasis should be on InterCity travel.

The Tring proposal seems to have receded because the Euston rebuilding for
HS2 is now planned to be in phases, so platforms for the Tring services
will remain available throughout. No-one is prepared to fund it given that
the need has faded.

With the Met headed for Watford Junction with a 6 tph service, there would
be neither the space not the need for the Bakerloo to return there.

According to one of the cunning plans circulated a couple of years ago
it wouldn't have got past Wembley Central because the DC line would
have been taken over by CrossRail.

The only cunning plan for Crossrail that I've heard of on that route was
for it to share the slow line to Tring, not take over the DC line. Everyone
has known, seemingly forever, that the Met would be going to the Junction,
and now it finally is, so what would Crossrail do at Watford? And how
would Crossrail get to Wembley, if not on the slow line?

A separate pair of tracks coming up the west side of the WCML. IIRC
the displaced DC/Bakerloo terminating tracks were to be shoehorned
into the "wasteland" south of the station.

Why would it then switch to the DC line?

To provide an extra pair of tracks for CR/WCML. I suspect the author
had failed to look any further north when drawing on his/her fag
packet. Another consequence to achieve the plan would probably have
been clearing the entire site down to track level (as the walls
supporting the Central Square raft would have been partly in the way)
and extending westward of the Down DC to gain room for the extended
platforms.

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 16:22:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 15:06:13 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

e27002 aurora wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:44:18 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2016\01\14 13:17, Recliner wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:08:41 +0000, e27002 aurora
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 00:14:35 +0000, Steve Fitzgerald
] wrote:

In message
,
Anna Noyd-Dryver writes

Hammersmith is no longer a depot as such. It's just a stabling point.

We have to take trains from Ealing Common to Edgware Road for H&C
services now.


Thanks Steve, I've been meaning to come back to this post - apparently only
6 S7s stable at Hammersmith overnight now.

Really? I didn't realise it was that few now as the other stabling
points haven't changed much.

Last time I was at HMD (for training) there were quite a few trains
about and space for, I would guess maybe 20 to 25 in total.

HMD was very much a C stock depot and once they went everything was
focused at Ealing Common and Upminster (and a couple at Neasden) which
both now provide H&C trains for service.

So, Anna's point seems to have more, and more merit. Unfortunately it
is too late now. The 14tph will remain as terminators.

But at OOC when it opens, which will be more useful than Paddington.

Yeah, but will OOC need 24tph? Would 12 not have been enough, with the
other twelve (or fewer) going to Hammersmith?

At one point there was talk of sending some Crossrail trains to Tring.
That seems to have been quietly set aside. IMHO Sending some
Crossrail trains to Tring and returning the Bakerloo to Watford would
be excellent. Euston's main emphasis should be on InterCity travel.

The Tring proposal seems to have receded because the Euston rebuilding for
HS2 is now planned to be in phases, so platforms for the Tring services
will remain available throughout. No-one is prepared to fund it given that
the need has faded.

With the Met headed for Watford Junction with a 6 tph service, there would
be neither the space not the need for the Bakerloo to return there.

According to one of the cunning plans circulated a couple of years ago
it wouldn't have got past Wembley Central because the DC line would
have been taken over by CrossRail.

The only cunning plan for Crossrail that I've heard of on that route was
for it to share the slow line to Tring, not take over the DC line. Everyone
has known, seemingly forever, that the Met would be going to the Junction,
and now it finally is, so what would Crossrail do at Watford? And how
would Crossrail get to Wembley, if not on the slow line?

A separate pair of tracks coming up the west side of the WCML. IIRC
the displaced DC/Bakerloo terminating tracks were to be shoehorned
into the "wasteland" south of the station.

Why would it then switch to the DC line?

To provide an extra pair of tracks for CR/WCML. I suspect the author
had failed to look any further north when drawing on his/her fag
packet. Another consequence to achieve the plan would probably have
been clearing the entire site down to track level (as the walls
supporting the Central Square raft would have been partly in the way)
and extending westward of the Down DC to gain room for the extended
platforms.

Ah, I don't recall that 'plan'. It's almost Bellsian in its bonkersness!

On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 17:19:53 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 16:22:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 15:06:13 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

e27002 aurora wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:44:18 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2016\01\14 13:17, Recliner wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:08:41 +0000, e27002 aurora
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 00:14:35 +0000, Steve Fitzgerald
] wrote:

In message
,
Anna Noyd-Dryver writes

Hammersmith is no longer a depot as such. It's just a stabling point.

We have to take trains from Ealing Common to Edgware Road for H&C
services now.


Thanks Steve, I've been meaning to come back to this post - apparently only
6 S7s stable at Hammersmith overnight now.

Really? I didn't realise it was that few now as the other stabling
points haven't changed much.

Last time I was at HMD (for training) there were quite a few trains
about and space for, I would guess maybe 20 to 25 in total.

HMD was very much a C stock depot and once they went everything was
focused at Ealing Common and Upminster (and a couple at Neasden) which
both now provide H&C trains for service.

So, Anna's point seems to have more, and more merit. Unfortunately it
is too late now. The 14tph will remain as terminators.

But at OOC when it opens, which will be more useful than Paddington.

Yeah, but will OOC need 24tph? Would 12 not have been enough, with the
other twelve (or fewer) going to Hammersmith?

At one point there was talk of sending some Crossrail trains to Tring.
That seems to have been quietly set aside. IMHO Sending some
Crossrail trains to Tring and returning the Bakerloo to Watford would
be excellent. Euston's main emphasis should be on InterCity travel.

The Tring proposal seems to have receded because the Euston rebuilding for
HS2 is now planned to be in phases, so platforms for the Tring services
will remain available throughout. No-one is prepared to fund it given that
the need has faded.

With the Met headed for Watford Junction with a 6 tph service, there would
be neither the space not the need for the Bakerloo to return there.

According to one of the cunning plans circulated a couple of years ago
it wouldn't have got past Wembley Central because the DC line would
have been taken over by CrossRail.

The only cunning plan for Crossrail that I've heard of on that route was
for it to share the slow line to Tring, not take over the DC line. Everyone
has known, seemingly forever, that the Met would be going to the Junction,
and now it finally is, so what would Crossrail do at Watford? And how
would Crossrail get to Wembley, if not on the slow line?

A separate pair of tracks coming up the west side of the WCML. IIRC
the displaced DC/Bakerloo terminating tracks were to be shoehorned
into the "wasteland" south of the station.

Why would it then switch to the DC line?

To provide an extra pair of tracks for CR/WCML. I suspect the author
had failed to look any further north when drawing on his/her fag
packet. Another consequence to achieve the plan would probably have
been clearing the entire site down to track level (as the walls
supporting the Central Square raft would have been partly in the way)
and extending westward of the Down DC to gain room for the extended
platforms.

Ah, I don't recall that 'plan'. It's almost Bellsian in its bonkersness!

Ah-hah! Found it :-
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%...philip%201.pdf
[http://tinyurl.com/gpe9jlt]
It actually seems to be more than one cunning plan and still serving
the DC line to Watford rather than how I remembered it but still with
trains to/from London getting no further than Wembley.

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 17:19:53 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 16:22:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 15:06:13 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

e27002 aurora wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:44:18 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2016\01\14 13:17, Recliner wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:08:41 +0000, e27002 aurora
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 00:14:35 +0000, Steve Fitzgerald
] wrote:

In message
,
Anna Noyd-Dryver writes

Hammersmith is no longer a depot as such. It's just a stabling point.

We have to take trains from Ealing Common to Edgware Road for H&C
services now.


Thanks Steve, I've been meaning to come back to this post - apparently only
6 S7s stable at Hammersmith overnight now.

Really? I didn't realise it was that few now as the other stabling
points haven't changed much.

Last time I was at HMD (for training) there were quite a few trains
about and space for, I would guess maybe 20 to 25 in total.

HMD was very much a C stock depot and once they went everything was
focused at Ealing Common and Upminster (and a couple at Neasden) which
both now provide H&C trains for service.

So, Anna's point seems to have more, and more merit. Unfortunately it
is too late now. The 14tph will remain as terminators.

But at OOC when it opens, which will be more useful than Paddington.

Yeah, but will OOC need 24tph? Would 12 not have been enough, with the
other twelve (or fewer) going to Hammersmith?

At one point there was talk of sending some Crossrail trains to Tring.
That seems to have been quietly set aside. IMHO Sending some
Crossrail trains to Tring and returning the Bakerloo to Watford would
be excellent. Euston's main emphasis should be on InterCity travel.

The Tring proposal seems to have receded because the Euston rebuilding for
HS2 is now planned to be in phases, so platforms for the Tring services
will remain available throughout. No-one is prepared to fund it given that
the need has faded.

With the Met headed for Watford Junction with a 6 tph service, there would
be neither the space not the need for the Bakerloo to return there.

According to one of the cunning plans circulated a couple of years ago
it wouldn't have got past Wembley Central because the DC line would
have been taken over by CrossRail.

The only cunning plan for Crossrail that I've heard of on that route was
for it to share the slow line to Tring, not take over the DC line. Everyone
has known, seemingly forever, that the Met would be going to the Junction,
and now it finally is, so what would Crossrail do at Watford? And how
would Crossrail get to Wembley, if not on the slow line?

A separate pair of tracks coming up the west side of the WCML. IIRC
the displaced DC/Bakerloo terminating tracks were to be shoehorned
into the "wasteland" south of the station.

Why would it then switch to the DC line?

To provide an extra pair of tracks for CR/WCML. I suspect the author
had failed to look any further north when drawing on his/her fag
packet. Another consequence to achieve the plan would probably have
been clearing the entire site down to track level (as the walls
supporting the Central Square raft would have been partly in the way)
and extending westward of the Down DC to gain room for the extended
platforms.

Ah, I don't recall that 'plan'. It's almost Bellsian in its bonkersness!

Ah-hah! Found it :-
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%...philip%201.pdf
[http://tinyurl.com/gpe9jlt]
It actually seems to be more than one cunning plan and still serving
the DC line to Watford rather than how I remembered it but still with
trains to/from London getting no further than Wembley.


No wonder nothing has been heard of it since!