On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 14:17:39 -0000
"Robin" wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 03:58:29 -0800 (PST)
Offramp wrote:
The RID, the new Revenue Inspection Device, checks only that the
contactless card has been used to enter the system. It says PASSED
or FAILED and gives a

But how does it know? Does it have a 3G or wifi link to head office?
This information certainly won't be stored on the bank card.

AIUI there's an overnight reconciliation. The revenue inspector records
the card. Back office checks overnight that that card was used to tap
in. If not then they take a maximum Oyster fare from the card.

Hmm. I don't like the idea of a company being able to extract money from
someones card without permission because there's always the danger of an error
which goes unnoticed by the owner or if the card has been nicked. It would be
far better if they just blocked it so it couldn't be used again until the owner
paid the fare.

--
Spud

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 14:21:15 -0000
"Robin" wrote:
Robin wrote:
d wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 03:58:29 -0800 (PST)
Offramp wrote:
The RID, the new Revenue Inspection Device, checks only that the
contactless card has been used to enter the system. It says PASSED
or FAILED and gives a

But how does it know? Does it have a 3G or wifi link to head office?
This information certainly won't be stored on the bank card.

AIUI there's an overnight reconciliation. The revenue inspector
records the card. Back office checks overnight that that card was
used to tap in. If not then they take a maximum Oyster fare from the
card.

Sorry - just noticed that Offramp referred to a *new* RID. What I said
dates from 2014 so is probably so out of date - and wrong.

Well unless the RID has a realtime radio link to the main computer I don't
see how else it could be done other than by a reconciliation later.

--
Spud

On 04/02/2016 15:03, d wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 14:17:39 -0000
"Robin" wrote:
d wrote:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 03:58:29 -0800 (PST)
Offramp wrote:
The RID, the new Revenue Inspection Device, checks only that the
contactless card has been used to enter the system. It says PASSED
or FAILED and gives a

But how does it know? Does it have a 3G or wifi link to head office?
This information certainly won't be stored on the bank card.

AIUI there's an overnight reconciliation. The revenue inspector records
the card. Back office checks overnight that that card was used to tap
in. If not then they take a maximum Oyster fare from the card.

Hmm. I don't like the idea of a company being able to extract money from
someones card without permission because there's always the danger of an error
which goes unnoticed by the owner or if the card has been nicked. It would be
far better if they just blocked it so it couldn't be used again until the owner
paid the fare.


How is this worse than someone losing their card, and some perp finding
it and ordering a round in the nearest pub? In fact it's better as the
owner in this case has a far longer window to notice and block the card.
I presume that once TfL have been unable to extract money from the
card it would be barred until the situation had been resolved (mostly in
the case of a stolen card, never).

I assume that the machines read the card electronically, and this has
all sorts of checks and balances to avoid misreading and hence errors
are very unlikely to occur.

d wrote:

Hmm. I don't like the idea of a company being able to extract money
from someones card without permission because there's always the
danger of an error which goes unnoticed by the owner or if the card
has been nicked. It would be far better if they just blocked it so it
couldn't be used again until the owner paid the fare.

I don't see how you arrive at "without permission". From Contactless
Conds of Carriage : "2.3 When you touch your contactless payment card on
a yellow card reader, or a portable card reader held by staff, you are
giving authorisation for the cost of your journey, including any maximum
fares or unpaid fares, to be charged to your card account."

OTOH I can see enormous scope for harm if a card were blocked by TfL if
it had not been used to touch in (or had not been not recorded as
such) - up to an including people missing onward connections and hence
births/marriages/deaths; and people stranded and then raped/murdered.

--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 15:27:53 -0000
"Robin" wrote:
wrote:

Hmm. I don't like the idea of a company being able to extract money
from someones card without permission because there's always the
danger of an error which goes unnoticed by the owner or if the card
has been nicked. It would be far better if they just blocked it so it
couldn't be used again until the owner paid the fare.

I don't see how you arrive at "without permission". From Contactless
Conds of Carriage : "2.3 When you touch your contactless payment card on
a yellow card reader, or a portable card reader held by staff, you are
giving authorisation for the cost of your journey, including any maximum
fares or unpaid fares, to be charged to your card account."

Well given no setup is required for using a contactless card on the tube
these conditions of carraige need to be clearly printed next to each gateline
so anyone who pops into the tube using contactless can see them. Are they?
No. In which case they have as much legal authority as a copy of the Beano
and I suspect any challenge in court would be successful.

--
Spud

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 15:27:53 -0000
"Robin" wrote:
wrote:

Hmm. I don't like the idea of a company being able to extract money
from someones card without permission because there's always the
danger of an error which goes unnoticed by the owner or if the card
has been nicked. It would be far better if they just blocked it so it
couldn't be used again until the owner paid the fare.

I don't see how you arrive at "without permission". From Contactless
Conds of Carriage : "2.3 When you touch your contactless payment card on
a yellow card reader, or a portable card reader held by staff, you are
giving authorisation for the cost of your journey, including any maximum
fares or unpaid fares, to be charged to your card account."

Well given no setup is required for using a contactless card on the tube
these conditions of carraige need to be clearly printed next to each gateline
so anyone who pops into the tube using contactless can see them. Are they?
No. In which case they have as much legal authority as a copy of the Beano
since someone must be made aware of any and all conditions of a contract they
even unwittingly enter into. (Eg parking companies can't get away with hiding
their terms and conditions on a notice hidden behind a tree). I suspect any
challenge in court would be successful.

--
Spud

So how does the system deal with someone entering at an ungated station to exit at another ungated station, carrying a pre-paid card with a zero balance? If gripped it seems the RPI won't be able to tell whether or not they touched in and whilst the overnight reconciliation would try to charge a maximum fare for an unresolved journey but this would be declined due to the zero balance.

It is a bit theoretical though, as I doubt there's enough potential ungated to ungated journeys that would make this a worthwhile bit of larceny.
--
Roy

So how does the system deal with someone entering at an ungated station to exit at another ungated station,
carrying a pre-paid card with a zero balance? If gripped it seems the RPI won't be able to tell whether or
not they touched in and whilst the overnight reconciliation would try to charge a maximum fare for an
unresolved journey but this would be declined due to the zero balance.

It probably doesn't. Keep in mind that the goal isn't necessarily to
have £0.00 in lost revenue, it's to get as much net revenue as
possible. The savings in not having to sell and manage zillions of
Oyster cards likely would pay for a fair amount of contactless
shenanigans.

In the worst case, they could just stop accepting prepaid cards other
than Oyster. The prefix of the card number identifies the type of
card.

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 08:45:17 -0800 (PST)
Roy wrote:
So how does the system deal with someone entering at an ungated station to =
exit at another ungated station, carrying a pre-paid card with a zero balan=
ce? If gripped it seems the RPI won't be able to tell whether or not they =
touched in and whilst the overnight reconciliation would try to charge a ma=
ximum fare for an unresolved journey but this would be declined due to the =
zero balance.

It is a bit theoretical though, as I doubt there's enough potential ungated=
to ungated journeys that would make this a worthwhile bit of larceny.

Anywhere to anywhere on the DLR. Also some of the platforms from finsbury
park high level are ungated so you can get to the tube without touching in.

--
Spud

In message , at 01:07:41 on Fri, 5 Feb
2016, John Levine remarked:
So how does the system deal with someone entering at an ungated
station to exit at another ungated station,
carrying a pre-paid card with a zero balance? If gripped it seems the
RPI won't be able to tell whether or
not they touched in and whilst the overnight reconciliation would try
to charge a maximum fare for an
unresolved journey but this would be declined due to the zero balance.

It probably doesn't. Keep in mind that the goal isn't necessarily to
have £0.00 in lost revenue, it's to get as much net revenue as
possible. The savings in not having to sell and manage zillions of
Oyster cards likely would pay for a fair amount of contactless
shenanigans.

In the worst case, they could just stop accepting prepaid cards other
than Oyster. The prefix of the card number identifies the type of
card.

That'd be a bad move for tourists as many of the cards which are issued
in foreign (to the tourist) currency are prepay Mastercards. Although
they are not ideal for a party travelling together as you require one
each.
--
Roland Perry