On 2016-03-04 09:53:03 +0000, d said:

Thats a good idea. Or just have different coloured lights on the train cars
over the doors. Green for lots of space, yellow for getting busy and red
for don't even bother. Or something like that

On LU having people move up and down the platform once the train has
arrived could be quite dangerous.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

In message , at 09:32:16 on Fri,
4 Mar 2016, Mike Bristow remarked:

This information needs to be available for all possible interchanges
- at KXStP, for example, that's perhaps 6 interchanges just between
the underground lines,[1] never mind the three or four mainline
stations and the street.

If all possible infomation is on the map, then it becomes too complex
to actaully use. There's a difficult balance to get right - and
multiple publications are probably the only sensible way of doing
it. Hence the step-free guide and the information available via
the online journey planner and so on.

As an example, a middle-aged woman with heavy luggage
travelling from Bedford to Walthamstow needs to know that
trudging from St. Pancras International to the Victoria Line
platforms is quite a hike. Does this mean that a map should
not show a connection at St. Pancras? Of course not. It means
that additional information needs to be given. (It also means
that a travelator should have been installed when they re-built
that station)

[1] Vic-Northern; Vic-Pic; Vic-SSL; Northern-Pic; Northern-SSL;
Pic-SSL. Assuming that they're all symetrical (which they won't
be).

Actually, all the interchanges are symmetrical, but there's usually more
than one to choose from in each case.

SSL to the deep tubes only via the traditional Khyber pass and the
original ticket hall (unles you want to try an outboundary connection
via the Northern Ticket Hall).

Northern/Victoria/Picc either by the old routes below the original
ticket hall, or the new routes associated with the northern ticket hall.

There's only one way through the maze that's stepless, though, and that
increases some of the distances involved significantly if you also want
"escaltor-less".

See this rather dated map I did about ten years ago from the plans,
before most of the new things had been constructed:

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/kx-composite.jpg

(The passage to the old KGX/Thameslink station runs south-east from the
yellow spur 80% along the bottom Victoria Line platform.)

The "traffic light" colouring of the passageways indicates how congested
the planners' footfall model expected the final layout to be.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 10:36:50 +0000
Neil Williams wrote:
On 2016-03-04 09:53:03 +0000, d said:

Thats a good idea. Or just have different coloured lights on the train cars
over the doors. Green for lots of space, yellow for getting busy and red
for don't even bother. Or something like that

On LU having people move up and down the platform once the train has
arrived could be quite dangerous.

Not as dangerouns has having people make a dash for it just before it arrives
once the lights go on if they're mounted on the opposite wall or wherever,
because then you have the possibility of someone getting pushed onto the
track with all the shoving.

--
Spud

In article ,
(Recliner) wrote:

On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 17:05:17 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message

-septembe
r.org, at 16:05:51 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Recliner
remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:07:19
on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Recliner remarked:

People also complain about the earlier Victoria-Picc connection.
There must be something in the way to stop it dropping down
halfway along.


http://husk.org/www.geocities.com/at.../ltgreenpk.gif

I think the 'thing' is the expensive buildings north of Piccadilly.
It's much easier, cheaper and safer to build station tunnels under
a (literally) green park than large buildings.

The Piccadilly Line platforms will be under the road, so the "thing"
is also under the road, towards the western end of the platforms.

No, the issue is that the current station building is linked by
single long escalators to Piccadilly line platforms that used to be
under a different surface building directly above the line, linked by
lifts.

** see below

So the Picc platforms are under the road, but well to the east of the
current station building.

The Victoria line came next, at approximately right angles to the
east-west Piccadilly line, and the platforms were placed just south
of the road, for ease of construction. The escalators link to the
platforms about a third of the way along (which is better than
connecting to the extreme ends of the platforms, which is what
happens with the Piccadilly line).

The subsequent Jubilee line platforms are below and just to the east
of the Victoria platforms. Of course, if they'd known then about the
later change of route, with the new line not needing to swing so far
east, the Jubilee line might have had a very different configuration
at Green Park, with the platforms parallel to the Victoria line. They
might even have delivered cross-platform interchange with the
Victoria line, as at, say Baker Street.

But the Picc platforms are so far to the east of the station, that
there's no good way of connecting new north-south platforms to both
the station building and the Piccadilly platforms to the east.

None of that explains why...

But they could nevertheless have started the passage between them
further to the western end of the Piccadilly line platforms.

...the passages from the two new stations don't head for the bottom of
the Piccadilly escalators, rather than the eastern ends of the
platforms which is what creates the excessively long walks.

I wonder if that was to avoid congestion on the platforms, which also
have to act as the route to the escalators? This way, people heading to
the passage to the Victoria line aren't mixed in with people heading for
the exit.

Such matters don't appear to bother the designers of other stations.

But... ** the "thing" might be the old lift shafts, the space taken
up by which, for some reason, they declined to re-use.

No, the old Dover Street station lift shafts will be over the Piccadilly
platforms

The "thing" I'm trying to identify is also above the Piccadilly
platforms.

Not exactly. See below.

-- you can work out where they must be from the location of the
old station at Dover St.

The space occupied by the "thing" is very likely under the junction
between Dover St and Piccadilly (which makes a lift shaft less likely).

But I presume that the Piccadilly line escalator
motor rooms must be below the line, so the Victoria line needed to run
further to the west, to be well clear of the escalators and their
equipment. It was probably easier to build the new line to run almost
directly under the existing station building. That minimised the length
of escalators, and meant that the station construction activity wasn't
directly under someone else's property.

You are still fixated upon the position of the Victoria Line. What I'm
interested in is why the passageway from the Victoria to Piccadilly
doesn't emerge at the western end of the latter's platforms. And later,
the same for the Jubilee.

Another thought strikes me: I wonder if the Picc platform exits and
stairs to the long passages to the Victoria and Jubilee lines are the
re-used original exits and stairs to the old Dover St station lower
lift landing? They seem to be in the right place for that, and
re-using them would have saved disruption to the Piccadilly line
platforms when the station was extended for the new lines.

I suspect the geocities diagram tends to confirm that, judging by the Dover
Street substation location shown. The Piccadilly lifts can't have been
directly above the platform tunnels because they are under the road.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Recliner) wrote:

On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 20:39:51 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message

-septemb
er.org, at 17:28:55 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Recliner
remarked:

You are still fixated upon the position of the Victoria Line. What I'm
interested in is why the passageway from the Victoria to Piccadilly
doesn't emerge at the western end of the latter's platforms. And
later, the same for the Jubilee.

As I said upthread, they were almost certainly trying to avoid
congestion at the western end of the platforms as you already get queues
backing up from the escalators on to the platforms, even without mixing
in all the people heading to and from the other lines. This way, even
though it increases the walking distance for those at the western end of
the trains, is safer. And it doesn't increase the walking distance for
the pax at the eastern end of the trains. If you're at the western end
of the Piccadilly line train, just take the escalator up, and then the
Victoria line escalator down.

That doesn't explain why this is the only station on the network where
the up-and-back-down escalator workaround is required, or they worry
about mixing new and transfer passengers.

The workaround isn't 'required', it's just a handy trick I discovered
when using the station. Incidentally, Wikipedia suggests that the
direct connection between the Picc and Vic lines was added later, so
maybe my handy trick for getting between them was actually the only
route initially. I can't remember if I discovered the shortcut when it
was the only way between them, but perhaps I did.

I knew the station slightly when the Victoria Line was new. I think the long
interchange was there from the start.

At quieter times, it's a very convenient station to use, with the
escalators at the same level and so near the platforms, and that's
probably what they were thinking of when they rebuilt it in 1933. With
the great increase in traffic in later years, what worked well then
doesn't work so well with today's crowds (remember that it's the
airport line).

So maybe the long corridor connection was added because the crowding
was too great at the western end of the Picc platforms, and if my
other theory is right, they took advantage of the disused 1906
platform exits, stairs and lift landing to do so.

Not my recollection but in recent years I've only used the Victoria-Jubilee
interchange and avoided the Victoria-Piccadilly one because it's so long.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 05:34:52
on Fri, 4 Mar 2016, remarked:

The Piccadilly lifts can't have been
directly above the platform tunnels because they are under the road.

I realise that now, but there must be something else in the way.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 04 Mar 2016 05:34:52 -0600,
wrote:

In article ,
(Recliner) wrote:

On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 17:05:17 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message

-septembe
r.org, at 16:05:51 on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Recliner
remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:07:19
on Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Recliner remarked:

People also complain about the earlier Victoria-Picc connection.
There must be something in the way to stop it dropping down
halfway along.


http://husk.org/www.geocities.com/at.../ltgreenpk.gif

I think the 'thing' is the expensive buildings north of Piccadilly.
It's much easier, cheaper and safer to build station tunnels under
a (literally) green park than large buildings.

The Piccadilly Line platforms will be under the road, so the "thing"
is also under the road, towards the western end of the platforms.

No, the issue is that the current station building is linked by
single long escalators to Piccadilly line platforms that used to be
under a different surface building directly above the line, linked by
lifts.

** see below

So the Picc platforms are under the road, but well to the east of the
current station building.

The Victoria line came next, at approximately right angles to the
east-west Piccadilly line, and the platforms were placed just south
of the road, for ease of construction. The escalators link to the
platforms about a third of the way along (which is better than
connecting to the extreme ends of the platforms, which is what
happens with the Piccadilly line).

The subsequent Jubilee line platforms are below and just to the east
of the Victoria platforms. Of course, if they'd known then about the
later change of route, with the new line not needing to swing so far
east, the Jubilee line might have had a very different configuration
at Green Park, with the platforms parallel to the Victoria line. They
might even have delivered cross-platform interchange with the
Victoria line, as at, say Baker Street.

But the Picc platforms are so far to the east of the station, that
there's no good way of connecting new north-south platforms to both
the station building and the Piccadilly platforms to the east.

None of that explains why...

But they could nevertheless have started the passage between them
further to the western end of the Piccadilly line platforms.

...the passages from the two new stations don't head for the bottom of
the Piccadilly escalators, rather than the eastern ends of the
platforms which is what creates the excessively long walks.

I wonder if that was to avoid congestion on the platforms, which also
have to act as the route to the escalators? This way, people heading to
the passage to the Victoria line aren't mixed in with people heading for
the exit.

Such matters don't appear to bother the designers of other stations.

But... ** the "thing" might be the old lift shafts, the space taken
up by which, for some reason, they declined to re-use.

No, the old Dover Street station lift shafts will be over the Piccadilly
platforms

The "thing" I'm trying to identify is also above the Piccadilly
platforms.

Not exactly. See below.

-- you can work out where they must be from the location of the
old station at Dover St.

The space occupied by the "thing" is very likely under the junction
between Dover St and Piccadilly (which makes a lift shaft less likely).

But I presume that the Piccadilly line escalator
motor rooms must be below the line, so the Victoria line needed to run
further to the west, to be well clear of the escalators and their
equipment. It was probably easier to build the new line to run almost
directly under the existing station building. That minimised the length
of escalators, and meant that the station construction activity wasn't
directly under someone else's property.

You are still fixated upon the position of the Victoria Line. What I'm
interested in is why the passageway from the Victoria to Piccadilly
doesn't emerge at the western end of the latter's platforms. And later,
the same for the Jubilee.

Another thought strikes me: I wonder if the Picc platform exits and
stairs to the long passages to the Victoria and Jubilee lines are the
re-used original exits and stairs to the old Dover St station lower
lift landing? They seem to be in the right place for that, and
re-using them would have saved disruption to the Piccadilly line
platforms when the station was extended for the new lines.

I suspect the geocities diagram tends to confirm that, judging by the Dover
Street substation location shown. The Piccadilly lifts can't have been
directly above the platform tunnels because they are under the road.

Yes, they were presumably on the northern side, as is the current
station. I think they re-used the platform exists, stairs, and
over-tunnel passageway, but linked that to the new corridor to the
south of the running tunnels, rather than the 1906 lift landing to the
north.

In message , at 13:28:17 on
Fri, 4 Mar 2016, Recliner remarked:

I suspect the geocities diagram tends to confirm that, judging by the Dover
Street substation location shown. The Piccadilly lifts can't have been
directly above the platform tunnels because they are under the road.

Yes, they were presumably on the northern side, as is the current
station.

Most maps show the station as south, but perhaps that's because it has
the most visible entrance? This one also purports to show the three sets
of platforms, and they look consistent with other diagrams:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/search?...station#map=19
/51.50673/-0.14206

I think they re-used the platform exists, stairs, and over-tunnel
passageway, but linked that to the new corridor to the south of the
running tunnels, rather than the 1906 lift landing to the north.

Yes, that's what happened, but *why*.

Incidentally I'm still coming up empty trying to find a picture of the
original (pre 1933) Dover Street station exterior. Presumably above the
"Dover Street Shaft".
--
Roland Perry

On 2016\03\04 11:17, d wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 10:36:50 +0000
Neil Williams wrote:
On 2016-03-04 09:53:03 +0000, d said:

Thats a good idea. Or just have different coloured lights on the train cars
over the doors. Green for lots of space, yellow for getting busy and red
for don't even bother. Or something like that

On LU having people move up and down the platform once the train has
arrived could be quite dangerous.

Not as dangerouns has having people make a dash for it just before it arrives
once the lights go on if they're mounted on the opposite wall or wherever,
because then you have the possibility of someone getting pushed onto the
track with all the shoving.

And yet there are, or were, stations with permanent signs mounted on the
tunnel wall telling people that there will be more space at the other
end of the train. I don't think there are many though. Maybe people know
where they all are.

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:28:17 on
Fri, 4 Mar 2016, Recliner remarked:

I suspect the geocities diagram tends to confirm that, judging by the Dover
Street substation location shown. The Piccadilly lifts can't have been
directly above the platform tunnels because they are under the road.

Yes, they were presumably on the northern side, as is the current
station.

Most maps show the station as south, but perhaps that's because it has
the most visible entrance? This one also purports to show the three sets
of platforms, and they look consistent with other diagrams:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/search?...station#map=19
/51.50673/-0.14206

I think they re-used the platform exists, stairs, and over-tunnel
passageway, but linked that to the new corridor to the south of the
running tunnels, rather than the 1906 lift landing to the north.

Yes, that's what happened, but *why*.

Cheaper and easier? Less disruption to the Piccadilly line? And not a
downside for pax near the eastern end of trains. Those at the western end
can use the escalator route.


Incidentally I'm still coming up empty trying to find a picture of the
original (pre 1933) Dover Street station exterior. Presumably above the
"Dover Street Shaft".

Yes, me too. I guess it must have been redeveloped a long time ago.