On 26/04/2016 14:29, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 13:27:32 on
Tue, 26 Apr 2016, David Walters remarked:
O. K. How about this then? A young mother is at work and
receives a phone call from her son's school. He's had a serious
accident and needs to be taken to a doctor and then probably
home. Obviously the mother needs to get to the school as
quickly as possible. Neither bus nor train will get the job done
so she needs a cab. She's in the suburbs where black cabs are
rarely found, so a minicab is the obvious mode of transport.

Are they really so rare that you couldn't phone for one and have it
arrive as soon as a minicab? The places I've lived outside of London
with a mixture of hackneys and minicabs it's been just as simple to call
one of the former as the latter.

I just tried to order a cab to my home in the suburbs of North
London using the Hailo app and it says there are no drivers currently
available. Perhaps that isn't the best way of ordering a Taxi though?

I'd try whichever outfit I got my last taxi receipt from.

Your last *minicab* (private hire) receipt from, is what you mean.
David's point - and I've experienced much the same with Hailo - is that
there are not lots of taxis (Hackney carriages) floating around the
suburbs and districts ready to do ordered pick up jobs. (Around some of
London's districts there will be, but there's a lot of London out there.)

In Greater London, a taxi is a taxi, and a minicab is a private hire
care is a minicab, but they are very distinct things.

In message , at 09:57:42 on Wed, 27 Apr
2016, Mizter T remarked:

On 26/04/2016 14:29, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 13:27:32 on
Tue, 26 Apr 2016, David Walters remarked:
O. K. How about this then? A young mother is at work and
receives a phone call from her son's school. He's had a serious
accident and needs to be taken to a doctor and then probably
home. Obviously the mother needs to get to the school as
quickly as possible. Neither bus nor train will get the job done
so she needs a cab. She's in the suburbs where black cabs are
rarely found, so a minicab is the obvious mode of transport.

Are they really so rare that you couldn't phone for one and have it
arrive as soon as a minicab? The places I've lived outside of London
with a mixture of hackneys and minicabs it's been just as simple to call
one of the former as the latter.

I just tried to order a cab to my home in the suburbs of North
London using the Hailo app

Hailo is for hackneys, so "cab" there must be a hackney.

and it says there are no drivers currently
available. Perhaps that isn't the best way of ordering a Taxi though?

I'd try whichever outfit I got my last taxi receipt from.

Your last *minicab* (private hire) receipt from, is what you mean.

No, my last taxi (hackney) receipt.

David's point - and I've experienced much the same with Hailo - is that
there are not lots of taxis (Hackney carriages) floating around the
suburbs and districts ready to do ordered pick up jobs. (Around some of
London's districts there will be, but there's a lot of London out there.)

In Greater London, a taxi is a taxi, and a minicab is a private hire
care is a minicab, but they are very distinct things.

Yes, although the term "cab" can confuse some people, until you realise
it's short for "black cab" and not "mini-cab".
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:57:42 on Wed, 27 Apr
2016, Mizter T remarked:

On 26/04/2016 14:29, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 13:27:32 on
Tue, 26 Apr 2016, David Walters remarked:
O. K. How about this then? A young mother is at work and
receives a phone call from her son's school. He's had a serious
accident and needs to be taken to a doctor and then probably
home. Obviously the mother needs to get to the school as
quickly as possible. Neither bus nor train will get the job done
so she needs a cab. She's in the suburbs where black cabs are
rarely found, so a minicab is the obvious mode of transport.

Are they really so rare that you couldn't phone for one and have it
arrive as soon as a minicab? The places I've lived outside of London
with a mixture of hackneys and minicabs it's been just as simple to call
one of the former as the latter.

I just tried to order a cab to my home in the suburbs of North
London using the Hailo app

Hailo is for hackneys, so "cab" there must be a hackney.

and it says there are no drivers currently
available. Perhaps that isn't the best way of ordering a Taxi though?

I'd try whichever outfit I got my last taxi receipt from.

Your last *minicab* (private hire) receipt from, is what you mean.

No, my last taxi (hackney) receipt.

David's point - and I've experienced much the same with Hailo - is that
there are not lots of taxis (Hackney carriages) floating around the
suburbs and districts ready to do ordered pick up jobs. (Around some of
London's districts there will be, but there's a lot of London out there.)

In Greater London, a taxi is a taxi, and a minicab is a private hire
care is a minicab, but they are very distinct things.

Yes, although the term "cab" can confuse some people, until you realise
it's short for "black cab" and not "mini-cab".

I think "cab" can mean either.

And, of course, many 'black' cabs aren't black:
http://www.verifonemedia.co.uk/Image....jpg&width=800

and many 'mini' cabs are actually large black vehicles:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/panmik...ream/lightbox/

So a 'black' cab is quite likely to be luridly painted, and a 'mini' cab
might actually be quite large, and even black!

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 06:43:13PM +0100, Mizter T wrote:
On 25/04/2016 14:52, d wrote:
David Cantrell wrote:
On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 06:13:47PM +0100, JNugent wrote:
There's always been a good case for the advance booking period for a
so-called "private hire car" to be at least twenty-four hours.
No there hasn't.
Imagine, for example, that you are in an industrial estate in Peckham.
There are no black cabs cruising the industrial estate looking for
passengers.
How do you get home?
Bus or train?
Yep, David's managed to come up with a rather odd way to put forward the
argument against Mr Nugent's much odder and totally unworkable proposition.

You are aware, I trust, that some people prefer sometimes to use a cab?
Sometimes because of laziness, sometimes because it's just the most
efficient way to travel.

Consider Peckham to Poplar, for example. Going by car is the fastest
method. Or Peckham to Thornton Heath, the bus is a joke taking nearly an
hour, and the train is only competitive with cabs if you're starting
next to a station and finishing next to a station.

--
David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information

THIS IS THE LANGUAGE POLICE
PUT DOWN YOUR THESAURUS
STEP AWAY FROM THE CLICHE

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 12:14:57PM +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Are they really so rare that you couldn't phone for one and have it
arrive as soon as a minicab? The places I've lived outside of London
with a mixture of hackneys and minicabs it's been just as simple to call
one of the former as the latter.

Surely in the interests of fairness the black cab would have to wait 24
hours, just like the minicab, when not being hailed on the street.

But in any case, last time I tried to summon a black cab using Hailo
(sorry, I don't know the phone numbers of any black cab drivers) they
said it would take an hour and ten minutes to get a car to me. That
makes it pretty clear that they have hardly any cars in the whole of
south London, and few outside the area that want customers from south
London.

--
David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world

What plaything can you offer me today?

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 05:04:16PM +0100, JNugent wrote:

No London green-badged cab driver can afford to hang around in the
suburbs where there isn't enough work to keep him busy.

However, there is the London yellow-badged driver, licensed only to ply
for hire within certain London suburban areas (known as sectors). They
are available in the whole of outer London:

I do not recall ever seeing a black cab cruising around looking for
customers in Thornton Heath. Those yellow badges might as well not
exist.

--
David Cantrell | Official London Perl Mongers Bad Influence

Guns aren't the problem. People who deserve to die are the problem.

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 09:36:16 on Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Recliner
remarked:

I just tried to order a cab to my home in the suburbs of North
London using the Hailo app

Hailo is for hackneys, so "cab" there must be a hackney.

and it says there are no drivers currently
available. Perhaps that isn't the best way of ordering a Taxi though?

I'd try whichever outfit I got my last taxi receipt from.

Your last *minicab* (private hire) receipt from, is what you mean.

No, my last taxi (hackney) receipt.

David's point - and I've experienced much the same with Hailo - is that
there are not lots of taxis (Hackney carriages) floating around the
suburbs and districts ready to do ordered pick up jobs. (Around some of
London's districts there will be, but there's a lot of London out there.)

In Greater London, a taxi is a taxi, and a minicab is a private hire
care is a minicab, but they are very distinct things.

Yes, although the term "cab" can confuse some people, until you realise
it's short for "black cab" and not "mini-cab".

I think "cab" can mean either.

All that matters is what the poster quoted above meant. And Hailo
strongly implies hackney.
--
Roland Perry

On 27/04/2016 02:15, Recliner wrote:
JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2016 21:02, Recliner wrote:
JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2016 17:11, Recliner wrote:
JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2016 16:23, David Walters wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2016 07:14:45 -0700 (PDT), Steve Lewis
wrote:
You can go to the trouble
of finding out the phone number of a taxi
firm in your current locality. Or you can just use the Uber app that
you have already installed on your smartphone.

But that wouldn't help in the situtation being discussed where private
hire requires 24 hours notice and I require a cab in my bit of suburban
North London right now for an emergency so need a black cab.

Although if private hire did require 24 hours notice there might be more
black cabs about serving the short notice requirement.

No London green-badged cab driver can afford to hang around in the
suburbs where there isn't enough work to keep him busy.
However, there is the London yellow-badged driver, licensed only to ply
for hire within certain London suburban areas (known as sectors). They
are available in the whole of outer London:
http://www.theknowledgetaxi.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/suburban.jpg

Why would someone ring for one of those when they could equally well ring a
local mini cab firm, which would be much cheaper, and provide a less
polluting vehicle (probably a modern hybrid car, not a rattling, smelly
diesel)?

You seem very certain of that.

The much lower cost or the modern, hybrid car? The former is indeed a
certainty, the latter has invariably been the case every time I've used a
mini cab in the last year or so.

"Invariably" meaning... what?

What do you think it means? Consult a dictionary if in doubt.

I know what it means and it's a surpriiong word to use in the context of
what you are saying.

On 27/04/2016 02:15, Recliner wrote:
JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2016 19:28, wrote:
In article ,
(JNugent) wrote:

On 26/04/2016 18:19, wrote:
In article ,
(JNugent) wrote:

On 25/04/2016 14:18, David Cantrell wrote:

On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 06:13:47PM +0100, JNugent wrote:

There's always been a good case for the advance booking period for a
so-called "private hire car" to be at least twenty-four hours.

No there hasn't.
Imagine, for example, that you are in an industrial estate in Peckham.
There are no black cabs cruising the industrial estate looking for
passengers.
How do you get home?

The whole reason why unlicensed* "private hire cars" (so-called) can
operate with their unlicensed* drivers is a loophole in the law which
distinguishes immediate hirings from advance bookings.

Immediate hirings - taxis.

Advance bookings - taxis (of course) *or* "private hire cars".

But unless a significant minimum period for that advance booking is
established and enforced, in practice, the law prohibiting unlicensed
plying-for-hire cannot be operated properly.

[* "licensed" here means licensed as a taxi or as a taxi-driver.]

Isn't the number of taxis limited a certain number while there are no
such limits to the number of hire cars because the law doesn't allow it?

No.

That was certainly the situation in Cambridge until 2001, with the
number of taxi licences clearly far too few for the business on offer.
I'm surprised you would support such monopolistic practice if there is
a limit.

The Transport Act of either 1995 or 2005 (I forget which, though 1995
rings the louder bell) forbade such limitation of the number of taxi
vehicles licences.

Limitation - if used (it isn't used everywhere) - now has to be
determined by quasi-scientific means. The usual method is to survey
the trade at "busy" times, whereas the correct method would be to
survey the trade at non-busy times, eg: a fine dry Tuesday
mid-morning in April.

Such limits are still legal outside London since the 1985 Transport Act (the
one that deregulated buses) but as you say only when supported by survey
evidence of "no unmet demand".

The trade are notorious for all sorts of dodgy practices while such surveys
are carried out to persuade survey firms there is no unmet demand.

After Labour regained control of Cambridge City Council in 2014 they
re-imposed a limit at the number of licences then held. To be fair, without
a limit the number of hackneys had been pretty static for some time
following a sharp rise after the Council, under Liberal Democrat control,
removed the limit in 2001.

One important difference between Cambridge and London is that hire cars have
meters and, though they don't have to, do in fact charge the same fares as
hackneys (with the city at least). Several operators have mixed fleets with
hackneys, city-licensed hire cars and South Cambs DC licensed hire cars
(which outnumber the rest by a large margin). So someone ring them up may
get any time of vehicle but will always be charged the same fare.

The Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, under which
most districts license private hire (so-called) cars provides that where
a meter is fitted to a private hire [sic] vehicle, it has to be
regulated to the rates charged by local taxis.

Why the 'sic'? If it's the correct legal term, there's no need for it. And
if it's not, use the correct term. The 'sic' should only be used when
quoting someone else's incorrect use of a word, like your incorrect use of
'sic'.

The use of the phrase "private hire" is problematic and for that reason,
not an accurate description.

Few of them are never used to accept illegal public hirings.

Just because you disapprove of cheaper, more convenient, cleaner,
legal competitors doesn't make them illicit. It just makes you look like a
white (or, actually) black elephant.

It's pity that you cannot answer argument with argument, isn't it?

JNugent wrote:
On 27/04/2016 02:15, Recliner wrote:
JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2016 19:28, wrote:
In article ,
(JNugent) wrote:

On 26/04/2016 18:19, wrote:
In article ,
(JNugent) wrote:

On 25/04/2016 14:18, David Cantrell wrote:

On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 06:13:47PM +0100, JNugent wrote:

There's always been a good case for the advance booking period for a
so-called "private hire car" to be at least twenty-four hours.

No there hasn't.
Imagine, for example, that you are in an industrial estate in Peckham.
There are no black cabs cruising the industrial estate looking for
passengers.
How do you get home?

The whole reason why unlicensed* "private hire cars" (so-called) can
operate with their unlicensed* drivers is a loophole in the law which
distinguishes immediate hirings from advance bookings.

Immediate hirings - taxis.

Advance bookings - taxis (of course) *or* "private hire cars".

But unless a significant minimum period for that advance booking is
established and enforced, in practice, the law prohibiting unlicensed
plying-for-hire cannot be operated properly.

[* "licensed" here means licensed as a taxi or as a taxi-driver.]

Isn't the number of taxis limited a certain number while there are no
such limits to the number of hire cars because the law doesn't allow it?

No.

That was certainly the situation in Cambridge until 2001, with the
number of taxi licences clearly far too few for the business on offer.
I'm surprised you would support such monopolistic practice if there is
a limit.

The Transport Act of either 1995 or 2005 (I forget which, though 1995
rings the louder bell) forbade such limitation of the number of taxi
vehicles licences.

Limitation - if used (it isn't used everywhere) - now has to be
determined by quasi-scientific means. The usual method is to survey
the trade at "busy" times, whereas the correct method would be to
survey the trade at non-busy times, eg: a fine dry Tuesday
mid-morning in April.

Such limits are still legal outside London since the 1985 Transport Act (the
one that deregulated buses) but as you say only when supported by survey
evidence of "no unmet demand".

The trade are notorious for all sorts of dodgy practices while such surveys
are carried out to persuade survey firms there is no unmet demand.

After Labour regained control of Cambridge City Council in 2014 they
re-imposed a limit at the number of licences then held. To be fair, without
a limit the number of hackneys had been pretty static for some time
following a sharp rise after the Council, under Liberal Democrat control,
removed the limit in 2001.

One important difference between Cambridge and London is that hire cars have
meters and, though they don't have to, do in fact charge the same fares as
hackneys (with the city at least). Several operators have mixed fleets with
hackneys, city-licensed hire cars and South Cambs DC licensed hire cars
(which outnumber the rest by a large margin). So someone ring them up may
get any time of vehicle but will always be charged the same fare.

The Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, under which
most districts license private hire (so-called) cars provides that where
a meter is fitted to a private hire [sic] vehicle, it has to be
regulated to the rates charged by local taxis.

Why the 'sic'? If it's the correct legal term, there's no need for it. And
if it's not, use the correct term. The 'sic' should only be used when
quoting someone else's incorrect use of a word, like your incorrect use of
'sic'.

The use of the phrase "private hire" is problematic and for that reason,
not an accurate description.

Few of them are never used to accept illegal public hirings.

And how do you know that with such certainty?

Just because you disapprove of cheaper, more convenient, cleaner,
legal competitors doesn't make them illicit. It just makes you look like a
white (or, actually) black elephant.

It's pity that you cannot answer argument with argument, isn't it?

I already did.