On 17/06/2016 11:30, NY wrote:
"D A Stocks" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
In article ,
() wrote:

So is it the intention of these deliberate derailers, or catch points
as those of us not in the press know them, to cause the train to
smash into an overhead wire support with such force that it bends in
two? What would be the result if the driver, who was presumably in
the cab at the time, or passengers had been killed or seriously
injured as a result?

Is this another feature of the signalling design that gave us the
Ladbroke
Grove crash? Looks like stupidity piled on stupidity.

How many other London Terminal approaches have derailers to handle
SPADs?

I asked a similar question a year or two back in relation to a set of
catch points that regularly cause chaos at Brighton station - the last
time was 15 April 2015. There are a number of circumstances where trap
points will be provided, especially on the exits from yards or depots
(or other lines) where shunting takes place. A falling gradient to the
main line might be another candidate for trap points because TPWS
won't help if a train is running away due to brake failure.

I wonder about the sanity of siting catch points so they derail a train
into an OHLE mast. Derail the train into anything else - preferably
broadside-on into a platform edge so the friction slows the train down
fairly gently. Let it even foul the line that it is joining, as long as
the train isn't derailed into the path of an adjacent line. But hitting
an OHLE mast, with the loss of power to all electric trains, seems stupid.

Surely the point is to derail it away from the possibility of fouling a
running line that may be occupied?


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In article , (Graeme
Wall) wrote:

On 17/06/2016 11:30, NY wrote:
"D A Stocks" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
In article ,
() wrote:

So is it the intention of these deliberate derailers, or catch points
as those of us not in the press know them, to cause the train to
smash into an overhead wire support with such force that it bends in
two? What would be the result if the driver, who was presumably in
the cab at the time, or passengers had been killed or seriously
injured as a result?

Is this another feature of the signalling design that gave us the
Ladbroke Grove crash? Looks like stupidity piled on stupidity.

How many other London Terminal approaches have derailers to handle
SPADs?

I asked a similar question a year or two back in relation to a set of
catch points that regularly cause chaos at Brighton station - the last
time was 15 April 2015. There are a number of circumstances where trap
points will be provided, especially on the exits from yards or depots
(or other lines) where shunting takes place. A falling gradient to the
main line might be another candidate for trap points because TPWS
won't help if a train is running away due to brake failure.

I wonder about the sanity of siting catch points so they derail a train
into an OHLE mast. Derail the train into anything else - preferably
broadside-on into a platform edge so the friction slows the train down
fairly gently. Let it even foul the line that it is joining, as long as
the train isn't derailed into the path of an adjacent line. But hitting
an OHLE mast, with the loss of power to all electric trains, seems
stupid.

Surely the point is to derail it away from the possibility of fouling
a running line that may be occupied?

True but it's also a matter of track layout so trap points have space to run
away into rather than into vital assets like OHLE masts.

Mind you, was the signalling designed before the OHLE was planned and
erected? ISTR an element in the Ladbroke Grove crash was signal sighting
impeded by the same OHLE.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

"Peter Able" wrote in message
...
https://twitter.com/networkrailPR/st...14804606894082

Ouch!


3H52 ECS Reading to Paddington normally hangs over at Old Oak Reception
Sidings for 20 minutes before proceeding to PAD platform 1, due 1754.
Yesterday it skipped the hangover and so approached platform 1 20 minutes
early, i.e. well before 1G60, the 1742 HST to Cheltenham Spa was due to
leave platform 1.

Now how could that sequence of events happen?

PA

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClF_kNHWEAAae6D.jpg

D A Stocks wrote:
wrote in message
...
In article ,
() wrote:

So is it the intention of these deliberate derailers, or catch points
as those of us not in the press know them, to cause the train to
smash into an overhead wire support with such force that it bends in
two? What would be the result if the driver, who was presumably in
the cab at the time, or passengers had been killed or seriously
injured as a result?

Is this another feature of the signalling design that gave us the Ladbroke
Grove crash? Looks like stupidity piled on stupidity.

How many other London Terminal approaches have derailers to handle SPADs?

I asked a similar question a year or two back in relation to a set of catch
points that regularly cause chaos at Brighton station - the last time was 15
April 2015. There are a number of circumstances where trap points will be
provided, especially on the exits from yards or depots (or other lines)
where shunting takes place. A falling gradient to the main line might be
another candidate for trap points because TPWS won't help if a train is
running away due to brake failure.

AIUI this SPAD at Paddington was an ECS move, possibly from a carriage road
that is not used for passenger trains in service?


This was the exit from Royal Oak sidings where LHCS can run-round, so trap
points entirely justified.

Serious question: which came first, the revised track layout in that area,
or the OHLE?


Anna Noyd-Dryver

NY wrote:
"D A Stocks" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
In article ,
() wrote:

So is it the intention of these deliberate derailers, or catch points
as those of us not in the press know them, to cause the train to
smash into an overhead wire support with such force that it bends in
two? What would be the result if the driver, who was presumably in
the cab at the time, or passengers had been killed or seriously
injured as a result?

Is this another feature of the signalling design that gave us the
Ladbroke
Grove crash? Looks like stupidity piled on stupidity.

How many other London Terminal approaches have derailers to handle SPADs?

I asked a similar question a year or two back in relation to a set of
catch points that regularly cause chaos at Brighton station - the last
time was 15 April 2015. There are a number of circumstances where trap
points will be provided, especially on the exits from yards or depots (or
other lines) where shunting takes place. A falling gradient to the main
line might be another candidate for trap points because TPWS won't help if
a train is running away due to brake failure.

I wonder about the sanity of siting catch points so they derail a train into
an OHLE mast. Derail the train into anything else - preferably broadside-on
into a platform edge so the friction slows the train down fairly gently. Let
it even foul the line that it is joining, as long as the train isn't
derailed into the path of an adjacent line. But hitting an OHLE mast, with
the loss of power to all electric trains, seems stupid.


I suspect that the OHLE mast came after the trap points. The train *was*
diverted into a platform edge as you suggest. 'Let it foul the line that it
is joining' is the line into/out of Platform 1!!

Why did the derailment cause *all* departures to be cancelled? Why couldn't
diesels continue to use any tracks that weren't fouled by the derailed
train, with only HEX having to be cancelled? Did the derailment happen at a
place where all the tracks were fouled by either the train or by the fallen
wires?


The damage to the OHLE mast is considerable - the wires attached have
fallen by several feet. In an area such as a station throat that naturally
affects all nearby lines as you don't immediately know what's broken,
what's not at the correct height etc, even if you don't run electric trains
(for which you want to know that the tensions have not been affected).

AIUI the arrangement of isolation switches mean that until someone can
physically isolate the required sections at the trackside, the whole
section from the nearest neutral section has to be isolated. That meant
that three of the four lines west of Ealing Broadway were blocked by
stranded EMUs. Lines 4 5 and 6 and platforms 7+ were available for use
again by 1845, unfortunately, the only way out would be via Greenford
avoiding the stranded EMUs.

Do TOCs have disaster plans for turning trains at a nearby station that has
transport links? Ealing Broadway would have been good because it has Central
and District line links. And what about Reading? Were westbound trains
running from there for people who used the Waterloo-Ascot-Reading line?


Passengers were initially sent to EB but as I've said, that plan was no
good in the circumstances. Many services were turned at Reading or Slough
which now has a much more flexible layout.

I presume all other TOCs accepted tickets for journeys from Paddington over
any reasonable route to Ealing/Reading.


I would expect so. I bet the trade from Marylebone to Oxford Parkway was
brisk, too...


Anna Noyd-Dryver

In article , (Anna
Noyd-Dryver) wrote:

NY wrote:
"D A Stocks" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
In article ,
() wrote:

So is it the intention of these deliberate derailers, or catch points
as those of us not in the press know them, to cause the train to
smash into an overhead wire support with such force that it bends in
two? What would be the result if the driver, who was presumably in
the cab at the time, or passengers had been killed or seriously
injured as a result?

Is this another feature of the signalling design that gave us the
Ladbroke Grove crash? Looks like stupidity piled on stupidity.

How many other London Terminal approaches have derailers to handle
SPADs?

I asked a similar question a year or two back in relation to a set of
catch points that regularly cause chaos at Brighton station -
time was 15 April 2015. There are a number of the last circumstances
where trap points will be provided, especially on the exits from yards
or depots (or other lines) where shunting takes place. A falling
gradient to the main line might be another candidate for trap points
because TPWS won't help if a train is running away due to brake
failure.

No answers to this question I see.

I wonder about the sanity of siting catch points so they derail a
train into an OHLE mast. Derail the train into anything else -
preferably broadside-on into a platform edge so the friction slows
the train down fairly gently. Let it even foul the line that it is
joining, as long as the train isn't derailed into the path of an
adjacent line. But hitting an OHLE mast, with the loss of power to
all electric trains, seems stupid.


I suspect that the OHLE mast came after the trap points. The train *was*
diverted into a platform edge as you suggest. 'Let it foul the line that
it is joining' is the line into/out of Platform 1!!

I think the present layout was designed before the OHLE came along, I agree.

Why did the derailment cause *all* departures to be cancelled? Why
couldn't diesels continue to use any tracks that weren't fouled by
the derailed train, with only HEX having to be cancelled? Did the
derailment happen at a place where all the tracks were fouled by
either the train or by the fallen wires?

The damage to the OHLE mast is considerable - the wires attached have
fallen by several feet. In an area such as a station throat that naturally
affects all nearby lines as you don't immediately know what's broken,
what's not at the correct height etc, even if you don't run electric
trains (for which you want to know that the tensions have not been
affected).

AIUI the arrangement of isolation switches mean that until someone can
physically isolate the required sections at the trackside, the whole
section from the nearest neutral section has to be isolated. That meant
that three of the four lines west of Ealing Broadway were blocked by
stranded EMUs. Lines 4 5 and 6 and platforms 7+ were available for use
again by 1845, unfortunately, the only way out would be via Greenford
avoiding the stranded EMUs.

Do TOCs have disaster plans for turning trains at a nearby station
that has transport links? Ealing Broadway would have been good
because it has Central and District line links. And what about
Reading? Were westbound trains running from there for people who
used the Waterloo-Ascot-Reading line?

Passengers were initially sent to EB but as I've said, that plan was no
good in the circumstances. Many services were turned at Reading or Slough
which now has a much more flexible layout.

I presume all other TOCs accepted tickets for journeys from
Paddington over any reasonable route to Ealing/Reading.

I would expect so. I bet the trade from Marylebone to Oxford Parkway was
brisk, too...

This sorry tale tells us how badly designed the Paddington approaches
layout, signalling and electrification are. This is the second (more minor
this time fortunately) case of chaos it has caused.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Anna
Noyd-Dryver) wrote:

D A Stocks wrote:
wrote in message
...
In article ,
() wrote:

So is it the intention of these deliberate derailers, or catch points
as those of us not in the press know them, to cause the train to
smash into an overhead wire support with such force that it bends in
two? What would be the result if the driver, who was presumably in
the cab at the time, or passengers had been killed or seriously
injured as a result?

Is this another feature of the signalling design that gave us the
Ladbroke Grove crash? Looks like stupidity piled on stupidity.

How many other London Terminal approaches have derailers to handle
SPADs?

I asked a similar question a year or two back in relation to a set
of catch points that regularly cause chaos at Brighton station -
the last time was 15 April 2015. There are a number of
circumstances where trap points will be provided, especially on the
exits from yards or depots (or other lines) where shunting takes
place. A falling gradient to the main line might be another
candidate for trap points because TPWS won't help if a train is
running away due to brake failure.

AIUI this SPAD at Paddington was an ECS move, possibly from a
carriage road that is not used for passenger trains in service?

This was the exit from Royal Oak sidings where LHCS can run-round, so trap
points entirely justified.

I thought it was the entry to Platform 1? Was this the only protection
feasible?

Serious question: which came first, the revised track layout in that area,
or the OHLE?

Track layout I think. Remember that OHLE was blamed for reducing signal
sighting in the Ladbroke Grove collision.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Anna
Noyd-Dryver) wrote:

NY wrote:
"D A Stocks" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
In article ,
() wrote:

So is it the intention of these deliberate derailers, or catch points
as those of us not in the press know them, to cause the train to
smash into an overhead wire support with such force that it bends in
two? What would be the result if the driver, who was presumably in
the cab at the time, or passengers had been killed or seriously
injured as a result?

Is this another feature of the signalling design that gave us the
Ladbroke Grove crash? Looks like stupidity piled on stupidity.

How many other London Terminal approaches have derailers to handle
SPADs?

I asked a similar question a year or two back in relation to a set of
catch points that regularly cause chaos at Brighton station - the last
time was 15 April 2015. There are a number of circumstances where trap
points will be provided, especially on the exits from yards or depots
(or other lines) where shunting takes place. A falling gradient to the
main line might be another candidate for trap points because TPWS won't
help if a train is running away due to brake failure.

I wonder about the sanity of siting catch points so they derail a
train into an OHLE mast. Derail the train into anything else -
preferably broadside-on into a platform edge so the friction slows
the train down fairly gently. Let it even foul the line that it is
joining, as long as the train isn't derailed into the path of an
adjacent line. But hitting an OHLE mast, with the loss of power to
all electric trains, seems stupid.


I suspect that the OHLE mast came after the trap points. The train *was*
diverted into a platform edge as you suggest. 'Let it foul the line that
it is joining' is the line into/out of Platform 1!!

Why did the derailment cause *all* departures to be cancelled? Why
couldn't diesels continue to use any tracks that weren't fouled by
the derailed train, with only HEX having to be cancelled? Did the
derailment happen at a place where all the tracks were fouled by
either the train or by the fallen wires?

The damage to the OHLE mast is considerable - the wires attached have
fallen by several feet. In an area such as a station throat that naturally
affects all nearby lines as you don't immediately know what's broken,
what's not at the correct height etc, even if you don't run electric
trains (for which you want to know that the tensions have not been
affected).

AIUI the arrangement of isolation switches mean that until someone can
physically isolate the required sections at the trackside, the whole
section from the nearest neutral section has to be isolated. That
meant
that three of the four lines west of Ealing Broadway were blocked by
stranded EMUs. Lines 4 5 and 6 and platforms 7+ were available for use
again by 1845, unfortunately, the only way out would be via Greenford
avoiding the stranded EMUs.

Do TOCs have disaster plans for turning trains at a nearby station
that has transport links? Ealing Broadway would have been good
because it has Central and District line links. And what about
Reading? Were westbound trains running from there for people who
used the Waterloo-Ascot-Reading line?

Passengers were initially sent to EB but as I've said, that plan was no
good in the circumstances. Many services were turned at Reading or Slough
which now has a much more flexible layout.

I presume all other TOCs accepted tickets for journeys from
Paddington over any reasonable route to Ealing/Reading.

I would expect so. I bet the trade from Marylebone to Oxford Parkway was
brisk, too...

I see the unit was only rerailed this evening. What on earth took them so
long?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 18:39:27
on Sat, 18 Jun 2016, remarked:

I see the unit was only rerailed this evening. What on earth took them so
long?

They needed to remove the OHL wires first, and I expect they can only do
that if the whole area is powered off, which they won't want to do if
half the station is still operating.

Another triumph for electrification! (They had to wait six weeks for an
engineering possession and the power off to rod the blocked drains in
the Gents on Ely's island platform a couple of years ago.)
--
Roland Perry