In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 17:12:48 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

I don't suppose the maps are applied in the factory with the production
trains. They'll be stuck in and updated as needed by the operator.

But will the initial trains even be labelled as 'Elizabeth Line'? I
thought the new name would only be used once the trains can use the
tunnel.

No they won't. TfL Rail applies until Dec 2018. It will apply even
when TfL take Heathrow Connect services in May 2018. All changes come
Dec 2018. See the footnotes to this press release about Paddington
Bakerloo Line reopening.


https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/pr...kerloo-line-se
rves-paddington-station-again-from-today

Was Crossrail/Elizabeth line always only going to terminate at Terminal 4 in
Heathrow?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote:
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 17:12:48 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

I don't suppose the maps are applied in the factory with the production
trains. They'll be stuck in and updated as needed by the operator.

But will the initial trains even be labelled as 'Elizabeth Line'? I
thought the new name would only be used once the trains can use the
tunnel.

No they won't. TfL Rail applies until Dec 2018. It will apply even
when TfL take Heathrow Connect services in May 2018. All changes come
Dec 2018. See the footnotes to this press release about Paddington
Bakerloo Line reopening.


https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/pr...kerloo-line-se
rves-paddington-station-again-from-today

Was Crossrail/Elizabeth line always only going to terminate at Terminal 4 in
Heathrow?

It replaces Heathrow Connect, which terminates at T4. HEx has T5. But I
still doubt the long term future of HEx. If it gets merged into Crossrail,
then all the terminals would be served by the same Tube and Rail services,
which would be much simpler.

What's particularly confusing to a visitor today is that the HCon station
in T4 is labelled as a HEx, not a HCon station, despite the fact that only
HCon trains serve it:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/26830662545/in/photolist-FXuZNR-GSWad6-GsQvXd-GsQvRS-GsQuX7-GsQw19-GJDBvL

If/when the western link opens, and there are through trains, then I'm sure
Crossrail will have to serve T5.

On 7/29/2016 6:12 PM, Recliner wrote:
[...]
The DfT ordered the TL class 700s, and did it in such an inept way that
Siemens won, not because it was offering a better or cheaper train, but
because the company had a better credit rating. Had the trains been
ordered through a ROSCO they'd certainly be cheaper, and would probably
have included features that the civil servants forgot, such as tray tables
and wifi.


I haven't followed that story closely - so Siemen's superior credit
rating is what won it?! Somewhat bizarre.

One imagines that the missing tray tables must have been bought up by
Siemens.

Missing wifi I can kinda understand - those who really need/want it will
have their own mobile data connectivity, and it's yet more electronic
kit for the train - but no tray tables is a daft omission.

Mizter T wrote:

On 7/29/2016 6:12 PM, Recliner wrote:
[...]
The DfT ordered the TL class 700s, and did it in such an inept way that
Siemens won, not because it was offering a better or cheaper train, but
because the company had a better credit rating. Had the trains been
ordered through a ROSCO they'd certainly be cheaper, and would probably
have included features that the civil servants forgot, such as tray tables
and wifi.


I haven't followed that story closely - so Siemen's superior credit
rating is what won it?! Somewhat bizarre.

One imagines that the missing tray tables must have been bought up by
Siemens.

Missing wifi I can kinda understand - those who really need/want it will
have their own mobile data connectivity, and it's yet more electronic
kit for the train - but no tray tables is a daft omission.

From
http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk...-trains-QA.pdf

"It has been decided not to have tables in standard class. Passenger
research for the rail watchdog, Passenger Focus and London TravelWatch
showed that people recognised the main priority was to maximise capacity.
Seat tables are a nice to have but they also slow people down getting on
and off trains – and we’ll have just 30 seconds to get people on and off
these new trains in central London.
Our priority is to get more people from A to B as quickly and as reliably
as possible. These new trains will give us more carriages and more capacity
and much better reliability than existing trains, which is what people
want.

....

Wi-Fi was not included in the original specification laid out in 2008.
However, the trains have been designed to make it as easy as possible for
Wi-Fi (or an alternative next generation technology) to be fitted."


Of course, the actual order was confirmed in, I think, 2013, not 2008, when
discussions first started. So there's really no good reason why the spec
wasn't updated to include Wi-Fi in the intervening five years of debate,
discussion and negotiation.

The reason it all took so long was that the DfT wished to place the order
itself, as it thought it could do better than the hated ROSCOs. The
manufacturers had to finance the trains, as the Treasury wanted the
purchase to be off the government's books, and that's where Siemens (with
its much better credit rating) had the advantage over Bombardier. Of
course, the government could have borrowed the money itself much more
cheaply than either manufacturer...

In uk.transport.london Recliner wrote:
"It has been decided not to have tables in standard class. Passenger
research for the rail watchdog, Passenger Focus and London TravelWatch
showed that people recognised the main priority was to maximise capacity.
Seat tables are a nice to have but they also slow people down getting on
and off trains – and we’ll have just 30 seconds to get people on and off
these new trains in central London.

It is noticeable that the 365 'refresh' has removed the tray tables,
procured by the very same TOC.

They were of limited usefulness: had a hole for a cup and a small space, but
not enough to put much on, and tended to collect dirt. However they were
also a useful shelf to prop up a laptop.

^MOur priority is to get more people from A to B as quickly and as reliably
as possible. These new trains will give us more carriages and more capacity
and much better reliability than existing trains, which is what people
want.

But some of those people will be doing two hour journeys and working on the
train is a thing, sources reveal.

Of course, the actual order was confirmed in, I think, 2013, not 2008, when
discussions first started. So there's really no good reason why the spec
wasn't updated to include Wi-Fi in the intervening five years of debate,
discussion and negotiation.

Is there any plan to fit them with wifi post-delivery?
And do they allow or block mobile signals?
(not a panacea, so many gadgets omitting a GSM radio)

Theo

In article ,
(Theo) wrote:

In uk.transport.london Recliner wrote:
"It has been decided not to have tables in standard class. Passenger
research for the rail watchdog, Passenger Focus and London TravelWatch
showed that people recognised the main priority was to maximise
capacity. Seat tables are a nice to have but they also slow people down
getting on and off trains _ and we_ll have just 30 seconds to get people
on and off these new trains in central London.

It is noticeable that the 365 'refresh' has removed the tray tables,
procured by the very same TOC.

I can't believe the 365 tables (there are still some I'm sure) are large
enough to affect dwell times.

They were of limited usefulness: had a hole for a cup and a small space,
but not enough to put much on, and tended to collect dirt. However they
were also a useful shelf to prop up a laptop.

No hole for a cup. Your memory is faulty.

^MOur priority is to get more people from A to B as quickly and as
reliably as possible. These new trains will give us more carriages and
more capacity and much better reliability than existing trains, which is
what people want.

But some of those people will be doing two hour journeys and working on
the train is a thing, sources reveal.

I think it's a Siemens thing. There are no tables of any sort on the 450s
and they have catering trolleys on some journeys!

Of course, the actual order was confirmed in, I think, 2013, not 2008,
when discussions first started. So there's really no good reason why the
spec wasn't updated to include Wi-Fi in the intervening five years of
debate, discussion and negotiation.

Is there any plan to fit them with wifi post-delivery?

Allegedly.

And do they allow or block mobile signals?
(not a panacea, so many gadgets omitting a GSM radio)

Where do you get that idea?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 03/08/2016 01:01, wrote:
In article ,

And do they allow or block mobile signals?
(not a panacea, so many gadgets omitting a GSM radio)

Where do you get that idea?

Didn't one lot of Virgin X-Country trains get covered with some form of
foil wrap that blocked GSM signals?

The point was aesthetic rather than a deliberate attempt to prevent "I'M
ON THE TRAIN" conversations but nevertheless that was the net effect.

On Tue, 02 Aug 2016 19:01:54 -0500
wrote:
In article ,
Of course, the actual order was confirmed in, I think, 2013, not 2008,
when discussions first started. So there's really no good reason why the
spec wasn't updated to include Wi-Fi in the intervening five years of
debate, discussion and negotiation.

Is there any plan to fit them with wifi post-delivery?

Allegedly.

Out of interest, does anyone know how the uplink in train wifi is done in the
UK? Does it use the cellular network or is it a proprietary radio system?

--
Spud

In message , at 08:25:38 on Wed, 3 Aug
2016, d remarked:
Of course, the actual order was confirmed in, I think, 2013, not 2008,
when discussions first started. So there's really no good reason why the
spec wasn't updated to include Wi-Fi in the intervening five years of
debate, discussion and negotiation.

Is there any plan to fit them with wifi post-delivery?

Allegedly.

Out of interest, does anyone know how the uplink in train wifi is done in the
UK? Does it use the cellular network or is it a proprietary radio system?

It's a mixture of satellite and HSDPA mobile. Coverage can be very
patchy outside of urban areas. The main problem with the Elizabeth Line
will be whether there's any mobile coverage in the tunnels. Existing HEx
tunnels do have GSM coverage.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 09:35:58 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:25:38 on Wed, 3 Aug
2016, d remarked:
Of course, the actual order was confirmed in, I think, 2013, not 2008,
when discussions first started. So there's really no good reason why the
spec wasn't updated to include Wi-Fi in the intervening five years of
debate, discussion and negotiation.

Is there any plan to fit them with wifi post-delivery?

Allegedly.

Out of interest, does anyone know how the uplink in train wifi is done in the
UK? Does it use the cellular network or is it a proprietary radio system?

It's a mixture of satellite and HSDPA mobile. Coverage can be very

Satellite on a moving train? Doesn't sound like a reliable system with the
train rocking and bouncing and changing direction all the time plus buildings
getting in the way. I know its used on aircraft but turbulence aside the body
pitching and rolling is generally fairly slow.

--
Spud