On 14.09.16 13:09, Mizter T wrote:

On 14/09/2016 10:23, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 10:00:38 on Wed, 14 Sep
2016, Mizter T remarked:
Erm, it's not that difficult, really.

(1) Navigate oneself to...
https://www.gov.uk/pay-dartford-crossing-charge

(2) Click on "Start now" and be taken to...
https://www.dartford-crossing-charge.service.gov.uk/Home/Choose

(3) Click on "Make a one off payment" and click on "Next"

And carry on for several more screens entering various data.

Four screens by my count, with the following info requested:

(1) Enter vehicle reg number
(2) Confirm the vehicle make & model (no need to enter this, it's
taken from the DVLA database)
(3) Choose how many crossings you wish to pay for (they are valid for
up to a year)
(4) Enter and confirm email address for receipt
(5) Enter payment card details

They're not asking for anything more than the bare minimum of info
needed. It's much the same as paying the London CC charge.

I agree the London CC doesn't lend itself to contactless (leaning out of
your car on Park Lane at 40mph), but the palaver above is a monstrous
bit of cost externalisation and should never have been allowed.


The entire point of the exercise was not about cost externalisation but
improving traffic flow at the crossing - everything I've read and heard
suggests that this has essentially been successful, though 'sheer weight
of traffic' can't be solved by free flow tolling.

Doesn't Athens allow alternate days for vehicles, depending on their
vehicle registration plate? Those who go in on an off day face a very
heavy fine, AIUI.

In message , at 10:14:37 on Thu, 15 Sep
2016, Clive D.W. Feather remarked:

Have you ever met David Blunkett and seen how well he copes despite
being blind?

Yes.

I was about to get out of a lift at the Home Office and he walked
straight at me; I had no chance to avoid him.

[I thought you were there as well, but perhaps it was Richard Clayton.]

The funny thing is, a week before he was made Home Secretary the Home
Office lifts were retro-fitted with the system that announces which
floor they are at. The staff took this as a tip-off regarding who their
next boss was going to be.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:09:26 on Wed, 14 Sep 2016,
Mizter T remarked:
Erm, it's not that difficult, really.

(1) Navigate oneself to...
https://www.gov.uk/pay-dartford-crossing-charge

(2) Click on "Start now" and be taken to...
https://www.dartford-crossing-charge.service.gov.uk/Home/Choose

(3) Click on "Make a one off payment" and click on "Next"

And carry on for several more screens entering various data.

Four screens by my count, with the following info requested:

(1) Enter vehicle reg number
(2) Confirm the vehicle make & model (no need to enter this, it's
taken from the DVLA database)
(3) Choose how many crossings you wish to pay for (they are valid for
up to a year)
(4) Enter and confirm email address for receipt
(5) Enter payment card details

They're not asking for anything more than the bare minimum of info
needed. It's much the same as paying the London CC charge.

I agree the London CC doesn't lend itself to contactless (leaning out of
your car on Park Lane at 40mph), but the palaver above is a monstrous
bit of cost externalisation and should never have been allowed.


The entire point of the exercise was not about cost externalisation but
improving traffic flow at the crossing - everything I've read and heard
suggests that this has essentially been successful, though 'sheer weight
of traffic' can't be solved by free flow tolling.

So I disagree with you. I do however think some aspects of the tolling
arrangements could be better, but the underlying concept of free flow
tolling at this crossing is sound. It works elsewhere just fine.

They could just as easily have implemented a hybrid scheme with a few
lanes taking payment.

Bearing in mine that there is an exit/entrance slip immediately before/after
both ends of the crossing and there are a lot of people who need to place
themselves in a particular lane to use that slip, and then there are a lot
of people who need to make sure that they are not in that lane so as not to
inadvertently get trapped into leaving the M25 when they don't want to this
would mean payment booths on both the inside and the outside of each
direction.

It would be a nightmare of weaving cars as people who wanted to/didn't want
to pay cash realised they were in the wrong lane

What's different about the Dartford Crossing is that its strategic
location means it's more likely to see people who only use it once or
twice a year.

It might be reasonable to add more alternatives to the current payment
options, but having optional cash booths on the road isn't one of them

tim

In message , at 13:35:51 on Fri, 16 Sep
2016, tim... remarked:
They could just as easily have implemented a hybrid scheme with a few
lanes taking payment.

Bearing in mine that there is an exit/entrance slip immediately
before/after both ends of the crossing and there are a lot of people
who need to place themselves in a particular lane to use that slip, and
then there are a lot of people who need to make sure that they are not
in that lane so as not to inadvertently get trapped into leaving the
M25 when they don't want to this would mean payment booths on both the
inside and the outside of each direction.

It would be a nightmare of weaving cars as people who wanted to/didn't
want to pay cash realised they were in the wrong lane

None of this was a problem when the choice was Dart-tag or cash.
--
Roland Perry

On 16/09/2016 15:24, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 13:35:51 on Fri, 16 Sep
2016, tim... remarked:
They could just as easily have implemented a hybrid scheme with a few
lanes taking payment.

Bearing in mine that there is an exit/entrance slip immediately
before/after both ends of the crossing and there are a lot of people
who need to place themselves in a particular lane to use that slip,
and then there are a lot of people who need to make sure that they are
not in that lane so as not to inadvertently get trapped into leaving
the M25 when they don't want to this would mean payment booths on both
the inside and the outside of each direction.

It would be a nightmare of weaving cars as people who wanted to/didn't
want to pay cash realised they were in the wrong lane

None of this was a problem when the choice was Dart-tag or cash.


Then the problem was with the queueing and associated slowing down and
congestion caused. And that was a big problem, especially as traffic
volumes went up. Like I said before, the change to free-flow tolling on
the crossing was all about addressing this (which was a big problem),
and from what I gather it has largely been a success - it doesn't solve
congestion at the crossing of course but it doesn't add to it.

The other alternative people inevitably suggest is abolishing tolls
altogether, along with making the point that the cost of constructing
the bridge was paid off in 2002. One then needs to consider whether the
tolls (which are technically "road user charges") have some effect on
controlling and limiting usage of the crossing, and if they were
abolished how much extra congestion would be caused by more vehicles
whose users were attracted to crossing for free.

Like tim says, the idea of there being a few toll booths with otherwise
free flowing traffic would be an accident black spot just waiting to happen.


A PSA - there are two types of Dart Charge accounts...

(1) a pre-pay account - top it up and "save up to a third" on crossing
charges, and...

(2) a pay-as-you-go account - free to create, register your vehicle (UK
registered vehicles only) and your payment card and it will be charged
when you make a crossing.

https://www.dartford-crossing-charge.service.gov.uk/Home/BeforeYouStartPayAsYouGo


I would criticise the Dart Charge promotional information for not
clearly pointing out the difference between the two above, and perhaps
too heavily promoting the pre-pay account (which is the successor to the
Dart-Tag scheme).

I would also criticise them for not ensuring there is somewhere to pay
the charge at the Thurrock services, or at either the Port of Dover or
at the Eurotunnel terminal. (I think I'm correct in saying there's
nowhere to pay at any of these three places - they certainly don't have
shops with "payzone" facilities.)

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

Four screens by my count, with the following info requested:

(1) Enter vehicle reg number
(2) Confirm the vehicle make & model (no need to enter this, it's taken
from the DVLA database)
(3) Choose how many crossings you wish to pay for (they are valid for up
to a year)
(4) Enter and confirm email address for receipt
(5) Enter payment card details

They're not asking for anything more than the bare minimum of info needed.
It's much the same as paying the London CC charge.


Hardly surprising given that, these days, the Dartford crossing charge is
just a congestion charge: the money collected is a tax and it does not fund
the crossing infrastructure in any way.

--
DAS

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:35:51 on Fri, 16 Sep 2016,
tim... remarked:
They could just as easily have implemented a hybrid scheme with a few
lanes taking payment.

Bearing in mine that there is an exit/entrance slip immediately
before/after both ends of the crossing and there are a lot of people who
need to place themselves in a particular lane to use that slip, and then
there are a lot of people who need to make sure that they are not in that
lane so as not to inadvertently get trapped into leaving the M25 when they
don't want to this would mean payment booths on both the inside and the
outside of each direction.

It would be a nightmare of weaving cars as people who wanted to/didn't
want to pay cash realised they were in the wrong lane

None of this was a problem when the choice was Dart-tag or cash.

that's because there were no special lanes for dart tag

you just drove though a normal booth and the barrier opened without you
paying

tim

"D A Stocks" wrote in message
...
"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

Four screens by my count, with the following info requested:

(1) Enter vehicle reg number
(2) Confirm the vehicle make & model (no need to enter this, it's taken
from the DVLA database)
(3) Choose how many crossings you wish to pay for (they are valid for up
to a year)
(4) Enter and confirm email address for receipt
(5) Enter payment card details

They're not asking for anything more than the bare minimum of info
needed. It's much the same as paying the London CC charge.


Hardly surprising given that, these days, the Dartford crossing charge is
just a congestion charge: the money collected is a tax and it does not
fund the crossing infrastructure in any way.

It will once the next crossing is built

tim

In message , at 09:15:10 on Sat, 17 Sep
2016, tim... remarked:
It would be a nightmare of weaving cars as people who wanted
to/didn't want to pay cash realised they were in the wrong lane

None of this was a problem when the choice was Dart-tag or cash.

that's because there were no special lanes for dart tag

you just drove though a normal booth and the barrier opened without you
paying

You could do that today using ANPR for those regular users with an
account.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 09:15:10 on Sat, 17 Sep 2016,
tim... remarked:
It would be a nightmare of weaving cars as people who wanted to/didn't
want to pay cash realised they were in the wrong lane

None of this was a problem when the choice was Dart-tag or cash.

that's because there were no special lanes for dart tag

you just drove though a normal booth and the barrier opened without you
paying

You could do that today using ANPR for those regular users with an
account.

1) you'd still need the barrier so that it could remain closed until the
cash payer had paid the correct amount (and in the completely idiot proof
system - received their change)

2) how do you determine which punters in the queue are going to post pay by
internet?

tim