On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 11:18:11 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 09:10:30 on Mon, 26 Sep
2016, tim... remarked:
"Londoners won't pay a penny more for their travel in 2020 than they do
today."

Londoners don't only use trains where TfL sets the fares.

Not all the passengers are Londoners either but it seems to be one of
several places where the description "people" is displaced by a
presumption that strangers have all stayed on their own side of the
boundary.

Presumably that's just referring to Oyster fares, on the assumption
that no Londoner is stupid enough to pay cash fares, but some non
Londoners do (and then go on social media and complain about London's
fares)

Some Oyster fares are based on National Rail fares for the route. Such
as Vauxhall to Waterloo direct (where iirc it's more than going on an
indirect tube-only route).

Some DC line fares are cheaper as they don't directly copy the Oyster
structure, mainly WRT peak fares. It will be interesting to see what
happens with Bushey and Watford High Street (zone 8) when the Met.
Line gets diverted into Watford Junction ("Special fares apply" -
north of the zone 8 boundary) from Watford (zone 7).

In article ,
(Charles Ellson) wrote:

On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 11:18:11 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 09:10:30 on Mon, 26 Sep
2016, tim... remarked:
"Londoners won't pay a penny more for their travel in 2020 than
they do today."

Londoners don't only use trains where TfL sets the fares.

Not all the passengers are Londoners either but it seems to be one of
several places where the description "people" is displaced by a
presumption that strangers have all stayed on their own side of the
boundary.

Presumably that's just referring to Oyster fares, on the assumption
that no Londoner is stupid enough to pay cash fares, but some non
Londoners do (and then go on social media and complain about London's
fares)

Some Oyster fares are based on National Rail fares for the route. Such
as Vauxhall to Waterloo direct (where iirc it's more than going on an
indirect tube-only route).

Some DC line fares are cheaper as they don't directly copy the Oyster
structure, mainly WRT peak fares. It will be interesting to see what
happens with Bushey and Watford High Street (zone 8) when the Met.
Line gets diverted into Watford Junction ("Special fares apply" -
north of the zone 8 boundary) from Watford (zone 7).

At present Euston-Watford Junction fares are set, not by London Overground,
but by London Midland. Is that going to change when LU trains arrive there?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 26/09/2016 11:19, Roland Perry wrote:

In message
-septe
mber.org, at 08:45:30 on Mon, 26 Sep 2016, Recliner
remarked:

I think the implicit assumption was that people
living and travelling within the London boroughs mainly pay TfL zonal
fares for the Tube, Overground, trams and buses. Relatively few
travellers within London are paying fares set by TOCs, and hence
unaffected by the freeze. But in most remarks and promises, Sadiq
explicitly made clear he was only referring to TfL fares.

The problem is that he didn't. Hence the need for the embarrassing
u-turn when got into office and saw the books.


Point out the "embarrassing u-turn".

You can't, because he performed no such manoeuvre.

You can quibble about the "Londoner's won't pay a penny more for their
travel [...]" line he used, perhaps with a degree of justification, but
there was no U-turn after he "saw the books" - that is nothing more than
a Roland Perry invention!

On 26/09/2016 11:18, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 09:10:30 on Mon, 26 Sep
2016, tim... remarked:
"Londoners won't pay a penny more for their travel in 2020 than
they do today."

Londoners don't only use trains where TfL sets the fares.

Not all the passengers are Londoners either but it seems to be one of
several places where the description "people" is displaced by a
presumption that strangers have all stayed on their own side of the
boundary.

Presumably that's just referring to Oyster fares, on the assumption
that no Londoner is stupid enough to pay cash fares, but some non
Londoners do (and then go on social media and complain about London's
fares)

Some Oyster fares are based on National Rail fares for the route. Such
as Vauxhall to Waterloo direct (where iirc it's more than going on an
indirect tube-only route).

This applies to Oyster+contactless fares for most NR routes (apart from
LO) south of the river. North of the river, many NR routes are on the
TfL fare scale, rather than the NR fare scale.

Your example is far from unique... see also Richmond or Wimbledon to
Waterloo, Lewisham to Charing Cross, Balham to Victoria etc etc.

The underlying NR fares within London are set by the DfT, I'm guessing
after some sort of consultation with the relevant TOCs, and the
Oyster/contactless fares then derive from that.

In message , at 15:10:27 on Tue, 27 Sep
2016, Mizter T remarked:

I think the implicit assumption was that people
living and travelling within the London boroughs mainly pay TfL zonal
fares for the Tube, Overground, trams and buses. Relatively few
travellers within London are paying fares set by TOCs, and hence
unaffected by the freeze. But in most remarks and promises, Sadiq
explicitly made clear he was only referring to TfL fares.

The problem is that he didn't. Hence the need for the embarrassing
u-turn when got into office and saw the books.

Point out the "embarrassing u-turn".

Having to admit that not all Londoners would have their fares capped.

You can quibble about the "Londoner's won't pay a penny more for their
travel [...]" line he used, perhaps with a degree of justification, but
there was no U-turn after he "saw the books" - that is nothing more
than a Roland Perry invention!

And the "single fares only" with:

"Passengers using Travelcards, Oyster cards or pay-as-you-go
contactless cards will not benefit from his plans."

has a distinct aroma of having seen the books, having not previously
realised that only single fares could be protected.

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/net...an-accused-of-
fares-freeze-u-turn
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 15:16:40 on Tue, 27 Sep
2016, Mizter T remarked:
"Londoners won't pay a penny more for their travel in 2020 than
they do today."

Londoners don't only use trains where TfL sets the fares.

Not all the passengers are Londoners either but it seems to be one of
several places where the description "people" is displaced by a
presumption that strangers have all stayed on their own side of the
boundary.

Presumably that's just referring to Oyster fares, on the assumption
that no Londoner is stupid enough to pay cash fares, but some non
Londoners do (and then go on social media and complain about London's
fares)

Some Oyster fares are based on National Rail fares for the route. Such
as Vauxhall to Waterloo direct (where iirc it's more than going on an
indirect tube-only route).

This applies to Oyster+contactless fares for most NR routes (apart from
LO) south of the river. North of the river, many NR routes are on the
TfL fare scale, rather than the NR fare scale.

Your example is far from unique... see also Richmond or Wimbledon to
Waterloo, Lewisham to Charing Cross, Balham to Victoria etc etc.

I had a meeting in Vauxhall, and decided to return via Waterloo so I
could make some phone calls on the train. When I later saw the bill, I
was a bit surprised because I'd thought all fares were zonal nowadays.
Clearly I've been taken in by some previous puffery.

TfL don't seem to be sending me my monthly Oyster statements any more,
so I haven't yet dug out whether Blackfriars (another meeting) to Kings
Cross costs more on Thameslink than the tube.
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at 15:16:40 on Tue, 27 Sep
2016, Mizter T remarked:
"Londoners won't pay a penny more for their travel in 2020 than
they do today."

Londoners don't only use trains where TfL sets the fares.

Not all the passengers are Londoners either but it seems to be one of
several places where the description "people" is displaced by a
presumption that strangers have all stayed on their own side of the
boundary.

Presumably that's just referring to Oyster fares, on the assumption
that no Londoner is stupid enough to pay cash fares, but some non
Londoners do (and then go on social media and complain about London's
fares)

Some Oyster fares are based on National Rail fares for the route. Such
as Vauxhall to Waterloo direct (where iirc it's more than going on an
indirect tube-only route).

This applies to Oyster+contactless fares for most NR routes (apart from
LO) south of the river. North of the river, many NR routes are on the
TfL fare scale, rather than the NR fare scale.

Your example is far from unique... see also Richmond or Wimbledon to
Waterloo, Lewisham to Charing Cross, Balham to Victoria etc etc.

I had a meeting in Vauxhall, and decided to return via Waterloo so I
could make some phone calls on the train. When I later saw the bill,
I was a bit surprised because I'd thought all fares were zonal
nowadays. Clearly I've been taken in by some previous puffery.

I learnt all to hard about that when I used to go to Putney. The worst is
journeys part on each scale which are most expensive of all.

TfL don't seem to be sending me my monthly Oyster statements any
more, so I haven't yet dug out whether Blackfriars (another meeting)
to Kings Cross costs more on Thameslink than the tube.

I think the Thameslink core is a TOC route charged at TfL rates. You can get
Oyster statement emails going again via the Oyster site.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Mizter T wrote:

On 26/09/2016 11:19, Roland Perry wrote:

In message
-septe
mber.org, at 08:45:30 on Mon, 26 Sep 2016, Recliner
remarked:

I think the implicit assumption was that people
living and travelling within the London boroughs mainly pay TfL zonal
fares for the Tube, Overground, trams and buses. Relatively few
travellers within London are paying fares set by TOCs, and hence
unaffected by the freeze. But in most remarks and promises, Sadiq
explicitly made clear he was only referring to TfL fares.

The problem is that he didn't. Hence the need for the embarrassing
u-turn when got into office and saw the books.


Point out the "embarrassing u-turn".

You can't, because he performed no such manoeuvre.

You can quibble about the "Londoner's won't pay a penny more for their
travel [...]" line he used, perhaps with a degree of justification, but
there was no U-turn after he "saw the books" - that is nothing more than
a Roland Perry invention!


In defence of Roland, it was either a U-turn, or alternatively he didn't
need to because he always knew he was lying and would never deliver. I
think Roland's interpretation is the rather more generous.

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016 15:29:41 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 15:16:40 on Tue, 27 Sep
2016, Mizter T remarked:
"Londoners won't pay a penny more for their travel in 2020 than
they do today."

Londoners don't only use trains where TfL sets the fares.

Not all the passengers are Londoners either but it seems to be one of
several places where the description "people" is displaced by a
presumption that strangers have all stayed on their own side of the
boundary.

Presumably that's just referring to Oyster fares, on the assumption
that no Londoner is stupid enough to pay cash fares, but some non
Londoners do (and then go on social media and complain about London's
fares)

Some Oyster fares are based on National Rail fares for the route. Such
as Vauxhall to Waterloo direct (where iirc it's more than going on an
indirect tube-only route).

This applies to Oyster+contactless fares for most NR routes (apart from
LO) south of the river. North of the river, many NR routes are on the
TfL fare scale, rather than the NR fare scale.

Your example is far from unique... see also Richmond or Wimbledon to
Waterloo, Lewisham to Charing Cross, Balham to Victoria etc etc.

I had a meeting in Vauxhall, and decided to return via Waterloo so I
could make some phone calls on the train. When I later saw the bill, I
was a bit surprised because I'd thought all fares were zonal nowadays.
Clearly I've been taken in by some previous puffery.

TfL don't seem to be sending me my monthly Oyster statements any more,
so I haven't yet dug out whether Blackfriars (another meeting) to Kings
Cross costs more on Thameslink

NR journey planner says 4-90 via LU (to KXSP), 2-90 "Not Underground",
"from 2-40" for Oyster at the top of the page and merely 2-40 for PAYG
at the bottom of the page (linked from the top of the page) for peak
or off-peak. Whether or not that matches reality might be another
matter.

than the tube.