On 09/11/2016 23:19, Optimist wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2016 19:47:10 +0000, Charles Ellson wrote:

On Wed, 9 Nov 2016 11:42:30 -0000, "tim..."
wrote:


wrote in message
news On Wed, 9 Nov 2016 08:52:13 -0000, "tim..."
wrote:



I see that you snipped the bit where I explained that that is not caused
by
the actual act of leaving but by the Remoaners not accepting the
situation,

The people who have not "accepted the situation" are the Brexiteers
who organised the Leave campaign based greatly on fear and loathing of
foreigners and who promptly buggered off and left others to clear up
the resultant mess when the vote actually went their way.

What nonsense. "Brexit" is not about "fear and loathing of foreigners" but about reverting to being
self-governing like most other countries in the world. Also the exit process is being deliberately
drawn out by the current PM who was a Remainer. Had the government started the exit process
straight away, as Cameron said he would during the campaign, we could have the whole thing sewn up
in months not years.


It takes two years, not shorter, not longer.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 10/11/2016 08:15, Optimist wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2016 23:37:32 +0000, Charles Ellson wrote:

On Wed, 09 Nov 2016 23:19:51 +0000, Optimist
wrote:

On Wed, 09 Nov 2016 19:47:10 +0000, Charles Ellson wrote:

On Wed, 9 Nov 2016 11:42:30 -0000, "tim..."
wrote:


wrote in message
news On Wed, 9 Nov 2016 08:52:13 -0000, "tim..."
wrote:



I see that you snipped the bit where I explained that that is not caused
by
the actual act of leaving but by the Remoaners not accepting the
situation,

The people who have not "accepted the situation" are the Brexiteers
who organised the Leave campaign based greatly on fear and loathing of
foreigners and who promptly buggered off and left others to clear up
the resultant mess when the vote actually went their way.

What nonsense. "Brexit" is not about "fear and loathing of foreigners"

You missed the many people being interviewed on the television who
clearly weren't bothered about much else ?

I don't recall anyone on TV expressing "fear and loathing of foreigners" - unless you are referring
to the desire to have proper control of immigration which is already running at over 600,000 (1% of
the population) a year and we are already one of the most densely populated countries on the planet.


Well that's two untruths in one sentence.




--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 10/11/2016 22:07, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 20:36:52 +0000, ColinR
wrote:

On 10/11/2016 11:06, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:38:40 on
Thu, 10 Nov 2016, Optimist remarked:


We had a thriving fishing industry which the EU ruined
(compare it to Norway & Iceland which sensibly kept out),

They limited our fishing to avoid extinction in the North Sea.


Rubbish. If that was the c ase then the unrestricted fishing by Norway
and Iceland would have obliterated stocks. As it is they are increasing
fast.

Not only that, but our fishermen were restricted, but the Spaniards had
free reign.

Spain didn't join the EU until 1986 and had no access to British
waters for the next 10 years. Fish stock were depleted long before
then.


Spanish access was often facilitated by some British trawler operators
selling on their quotas.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 22:33:41 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 09/11/2016 23:19, Optimist wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2016 19:47:10 +0000, Charles Ellson wrote:

On Wed, 9 Nov 2016 11:42:30 -0000, "tim..."
wrote:


wrote in message
news On Wed, 9 Nov 2016 08:52:13 -0000, "tim..."
wrote:



I see that you snipped the bit where I explained that that is not caused
by
the actual act of leaving but by the Remoaners not accepting the
situation,

The people who have not "accepted the situation" are the Brexiteers
who organised the Leave campaign based greatly on fear and loathing of
foreigners and who promptly buggered off and left others to clear up
the resultant mess when the vote actually went their way.

What nonsense. "Brexit" is not about "fear and loathing of foreigners" but about reverting to being
self-governing like most other countries in the world. Also the exit process is being deliberately
drawn out by the current PM who was a Remainer. Had the government started the exit process
straight away, as Cameron said he would during the campaign, we could have the whole thing sewn up
in months not years.


It takes two years, not shorter, not longer.

It could be a lot longer than two years to sort out all the
consequential matters. At the end of 2y the danger is that the UK will
out on its arse without important matters all being settled. HMG's
version as repeated (and apparently not disputed) by the Daily Diana
[http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...-negotiations]
is "up to a decade or more of uncertainty".

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 22:34:37 +0000, Graeme Wall wrote:

On 10/11/2016 08:15, Optimist wrote:


I don't recall anyone on TV expressing "fear and loathing of foreigners" - unless you are referring
to the desire to have proper control of immigration which is already running at over 600,000 (1% of
the population) a year and we are already one of the most densely populated countries on the planet.


Well that's two untruths in one sentence.

(1) Sorry I underestimated immigration. Currently it is 633,000 a year
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ionalmigration

(2) England has a population density of 420 per sq. km. - few countries are more densely populated
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 11:06:12 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 10:38:40 on
Thu, 10 Nov 2016, Optimist remarked:

I'll pick out a few of the worst howlers:

Legislation to remove EU competence (i.e. power) over UK affairs but adopting current EU laws into
UK law so we can change, repeal or leave unchanged as required AFTER we leave.

(1) Is that for EU Laws brought into force up to the day of exit, or
some other milestone. This isn't hypothetical, there's a huge Data
Protection shake-up due to be in force by May 2018. Which is just after
current predictions of Brexit. Assuming we do exit my April 2018, what
will the Data Protection law in the UK be in June 2018, given that if
it's the old law we won't be a "safe harbour" and many EU companies will
be in difficulty working through UK datacentres. Further to that, if we
brought the new law into force by March 2018 [there's no prohibition on
being early] what if there's a European Court ruling in 2020
'clarifying' what the law means, as has happened recently with the old
law and the so-called "Domestic Exemption"? Will we adopt the revised
law.

(2) What of the laws which provide for regulatory decisions to be made
by the EU equivalent of OFCOM[1], whatever the Monopolies Commission is
called this week, and so on? What if the laws have other pan-European
aspects, like the ones on Copyright and Patents.

[1] eg Will UK mobile phone companies have to abide by EU decisions on
roaming costs.


The government is putting this into the so-called Great Repeal Bill being prepared by David Davis's
department so I'm sure they will be able to answer your questions.

Start discussions on tying up loose ends (staff costs, pensions etc.).

Who pays those wages and pensions for the duration of the discussions?

We continue paying as now until the date we actually leave.


Inform the EU we are leaving on a particular date and say we intend to carry on trading with the EU
tariff-free as long as the other countries reciprocate.

You can inform until you are blue in the teeth. They can ignore us.

OK, so WTO/MFN trading then. German car workers who will lose their jobs as a result won't be
pleased.


EU governments are unlikely to refuse as adopting WTO/MFN rules would damage their businesses far
more than ours

That strategy's not working so well with UK & India.

New trade deals are being discussed now.


(German businesses in particular are lobbying to maintain tariff-free access to their
biggest market). We will no longer obliged to pay into the EU budget, so that will save us about
£10 billion a year net,

Chicken feed compared to the financial benefits of the single market.

We will still be able to trade with EU as they will wish to carry on trading with us. So the
details will be negotiated, with WTO/MFN as the fallback.


and FTAs with non-EU countries will give us access to cheaper imports.

After a decade of negotiations.

Rubbish, many countries want deals with us. Some have abandoned attempts to get agreements with EU
and are turning to UK instead.


I do admit that many did vote divorce to become self-governing again.

I am old enough to remember politics before we went into the EC. Contrary to the alarmist reports
of some, we had human rights, equal pay, maternity pay etc. We had a health service (the NHS came
into existence when I was a few months old).

Yes, but a great deal of today's consumer/employee protection has been
added on top of that rather low base by the EU.

No-one is saying we get rid of everything the EU introduced - some of it undoubtedly UK policy. It
just means that UK will be responsible in the future.


We had a thriving fishing industry which the EU ruined
(compare it to Norway & Iceland which sensibly kept out),

They limited our fishing to avoid extinction in the North Sea.

EU policy is throw excess catch back into the sea, dead. Everyone agrees this is bonkers. Norway &
Iceland have far better policies which actually do conserve fish.


our own regional policy (no need for regions to lobby in Brussels
against each other for a small slice of the money we pay into the EU)

It's far easier to get that sort of money from the EU than from
Westminster.

But Westminster will have more money (see above).

In message , at 15:46:29
on Thu, 10 Nov 2016, remarked:

(1) Is that for EU Laws brought into force up to the day of exit, or
some other milestone. This isn't hypothetical, there's a huge Data
Protection shake-up due to be in force by May 2018. Which is just
after current predictions of Brexit. Assuming we do exit my April
2018, what will the Data Protection law in the UK be in June 2018,
given that if it's the old law we won't be a "safe harbour" and many
EU companies will be in difficulty working through UK datacentres.

The planned date for leaving is by April 2019.

Oops, I added 2 to the wrong year. I suppose in this case it makes it
clearer that we *will* have to implement that new set of rules. But
there's bound to be something else due to come into force in May 2019,
so still some dominoes, but with a different name.
--
Roland Perry

"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 09 Nov 2016 23:19:51 +0000, Optimist
wrote:

On Wed, 09 Nov 2016 19:47:10 +0000, Charles Ellson
wrote:

On Wed, 9 Nov 2016 11:42:30 -0000, "tim..."
wrote:


wrote in message
news On Wed, 9 Nov 2016 08:52:13 -0000, "tim..."
wrote:



I see that you snipped the bit where I explained that that is not
caused
by
the actual act of leaving but by the Remoaners not accepting the
situation,

The people who have not "accepted the situation" are the Brexiteers
who organised the Leave campaign based greatly on fear and loathing of
foreigners and who promptly buggered off and left others to clear up
the resultant mess when the vote actually went their way.

What nonsense. "Brexit" is not about "fear and loathing of foreigners"

You missed the many people being interviewed on the television who
clearly weren't bothered about much else ?

but about reverting to being self-governing like most other countries in
the world.

So why are Brexiteers banging on about getting stuck into trade deals
which will shackle us to the USA ?

making a trade deal with a country does not "shackle you" to it

What a load of nonsense you spout!

tim

"Paul Cummins" wrote in message
k...
In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

So you can't get housed faster - you need to wait at least six
months,
already live in the district and be able to bid ...

If your need is greater at the six month milestone than a local,
you'll get housed after six months, and the local sometime never,
having waited years. That's faster.

But surely your need is greater at the zero-day milestone, since you have
no housing at that stage. And. apparently can't get any, even though
locals at the zero-day stage can.


but your need is only greater as you have made yourself intentional homeless
by leaving a perfectly good house back in your home country to move
somewhere where you couldn't afford the local rate for accommodation.

if a Brit did that, intra-UK, he would be barred from getting on the list at
all.

tim

"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 10/11/2016 09:14, Roland Perry wrote:


One of the problems with the stats is counting foreign students (whose
fees many Universities depend on) as immigrants.

It doesn't help the debate that according to the Guardian these students
are all doing PhDs in rocket science and cancer-curing at Imperial, while
according to the Mail they are all doing diplomas in general studies at
the Outer Croydon Institute of Visa Applications.

I don't think that it matters what subject they study

what matters is the level of qualification they are studying for

we should simply have the cut off point at: studying at first degree level
or above at an accredited university.

Attempts to study for some made up qualification at mom and pop college
should see you excluded entry

Of course you do have a problem with these people who come here for an
accredited course and then drop out

No idea how big that sample set is

tim