On 11/11/2016 08:25, Optimist wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 22:34:37 +0000, Graeme Wall wrote:

On 10/11/2016 08:15, Optimist wrote:


I don't recall anyone on TV expressing "fear and loathing of foreigners" - unless you are referring
to the desire to have proper control of immigration which is already running at over 600,000 (1% of
the population) a year and we are already one of the most densely populated countries on the planet.


Well that's two untruths in one sentence.

(1) Sorry I underestimated immigration. Currently it is 633,000 a year
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ionalmigration

Gross, doesn't take into account those leaving in the same period.


(2) England has a population density of 420 per sq. km. - few countries are more densely populated
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England


United Kingdom has a much lower density and your immigration statistics
are for the whole of the UK.

The UK ranks 53rd in the population density table. England on its own
would rate around 27th.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 11/11/2016 08:25, Optimist wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 11:06:12 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 10:38:40 on
Thu, 10 Nov 2016, Optimist remarked:

I'll pick out a few of the worst howlers:

Legislation to remove EU competence (i.e. power) over UK affairs but adopting current EU laws into
UK law so we can change, repeal or leave unchanged as required AFTER we leave.

(1) Is that for EU Laws brought into force up to the day of exit, or
some other milestone. This isn't hypothetical, there's a huge Data
Protection shake-up due to be in force by May 2018. Which is just after
current predictions of Brexit. Assuming we do exit my April 2018, what
will the Data Protection law in the UK be in June 2018, given that if
it's the old law we won't be a "safe harbour" and many EU companies will
be in difficulty working through UK datacentres. Further to that, if we
brought the new law into force by March 2018 [there's no prohibition on
being early] what if there's a European Court ruling in 2020
'clarifying' what the law means, as has happened recently with the old
law and the so-called "Domestic Exemption"? Will we adopt the revised
law.

(2) What of the laws which provide for regulatory decisions to be made
by the EU equivalent of OFCOM[1], whatever the Monopolies Commission is
called this week, and so on? What if the laws have other pan-European
aspects, like the ones on Copyright and Patents.

[1] eg Will UK mobile phone companies have to abide by EU decisions on
roaming costs.


The government is putting this into the so-called Great Repeal Bill being prepared by David Davis's
department so I'm sure they will be able to answer your questions.

Start discussions on tying up loose ends (staff costs, pensions etc.).

Who pays those wages and pensions for the duration of the discussions?

We continue paying as now until the date we actually leave.


Inform the EU we are leaving on a particular date and say we intend to carry on trading with the EU
tariff-free as long as the other countries reciprocate.

You can inform until you are blue in the teeth. They can ignore us.

OK, so WTO/MFN trading then. German car workers who will lose their jobs as a result won't be
pleased.


Exactly how many German car workers are employed in Swindon, Sunderland
and Goodwood?


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 11/11/2016 09:07, tim... wrote:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 20:32:11 on Wed, 9 Nov
2016, tim... remarked:
Yes, I know that we can enforce a set of minimum conditions, but
experience is that it is hard for TPTB to enforce them. IMHO
it's oh so much easier to make sure that conditions improve by
taking away the supply of workers willing to work like slaves.

Unless, of course, freeing ourselves from Brussels Red Tape allows
us to have even worse minimum conditions.

which I believe that it wont

come back in 10 years to prove me wrong

Yawn.

well it was your decision to rerun a discussion we have already had

You brought up the minimum conditions (09 Nov 17:37:54)

but you mentioned this ridiculous, unproven plan, that the Tories are
going to do away with all employee protection as soon as we leave

they are not


You've not paid attention to the rantings of the tory right then?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 11/11/16 11:42, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 11/11/2016 08:25, Optimist wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 11:06:12 +0000, Roland Perry


Inform the EU we are leaving on a particular date and say we intend
to carry on trading with the EU
tariff-free as long as the other countries reciprocate.

You can inform until you are blue in the teeth. They can ignore us.

OK, so WTO/MFN trading then. German car workers who will lose their
jobs as a result won't be
pleased.


Exactly how many German car workers are employed in Swindon, Sunderland
and Goodwood?


I assume he was referring to the German car workers in Germany some of
whom will be out of a job when car exports to the UK are reduced.

On 11/11/2016 12:11, Martin Coffee wrote:
On 11/11/16 11:42, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 11/11/2016 08:25, Optimist wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 11:06:12 +0000, Roland Perry


Inform the EU we are leaving on a particular date and say we intend
to carry on trading with the EU
tariff-free as long as the other countries reciprocate.

You can inform until you are blue in the teeth. They can ignore us.

OK, so WTO/MFN trading then. German car workers who will lose their
jobs as a result won't be
pleased.


Exactly how many German car workers are employed in Swindon, Sunderland
and Goodwood?


I assume he was referring to the German car workers in Germany some of
whom will be out of a job when car exports to the UK are reduced.

You mean the rich are suddenly going to stop by buying Audis, BMWs and
Mercedes? Would you like to estimate the number of German jobs lost as a
percentage of the British jobs lost when Nissan and Honda move
production to their existing plants in the EU?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2016 11:25:22 +0000
Optimist wrote:
England should also have its parliament and government, just as the other
countries of the UK do.
The UK (union) parliament should be unicameral and much smaller, say 100 MPs.
The House of Lords is
a waste of space and should be abolished.

I tend to agree. With the powers now given to scotland, wales and NI, a
federal type system with a gov. for england as well is the only fair way to
proceed. As usual governments listened to the squeeling minorities and worried
about their rights and representations, and to hell with the majority - ie the
50m people who live in england.

--
Spud

In message , at 11:25:22 on
Fri, 11 Nov 2016, Optimist remarked:

The House of Lords is a waste of space and should be abolished.

You need a second chamber, and most of the active Lords have been
recruited to provide the specialist expertise to fully challenge
Government legislation "line by line", as the saying goes.

They do a far better job of it in the round, than most opposition
parties in the Commons (and that's not a dig at Corbyn's current
predicament, it's a long term thing).

One of the reasons is they have the time and people to scrutinise in
great detail, whereas a typical MP has neither the specialist knowledge
nor the hours in the day what with everything else they have to do.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 11:34:52 on Fri, 11 Nov
2016, Graeme Wall remarked:
It takes two years, not shorter, not longer.

It could be a lot longer than two years to sort out all the
consequential matters. At the end of 2y the danger is that the UK will
out on its arse without important matters all being settled. HMG's
version as repeated (and apparently not disputed) by the Daily Diana
[http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...-negotiations]
is "up to a decade or more of uncertainty".

For once the Dead Princess charlatans have got it right, more august
commentators reckon at least 10 years. The basics though are, once May
invokes Article 50 it is two years to exit regardless of what has or
hasn't been sorted. Won't be any quicker just because Liam says it will.

And I honestly don't what the calls for a referendum on the result of
the negotiations is trying to achieve. If that referendum votes "no"
we'll be exiting (because that's inevitable) with a blank sheet of paper
as an agreement.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:39:37 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:25:22 on
Fri, 11 Nov 2016, Optimist remarked:

The House of Lords is a waste of space and should be abolished.

You need a second chamber, and most of the active Lords have been
recruited to provide the specialist expertise to fully challenge
Government legislation "line by line", as the saying goes.

Depends how you define challenge. If its picking over the fine legal minutae
or financial repercussions, then sure, most of them have a legal, political or
business background. If its actually debating the potential outcome of say
enviromental or transport legislation then most of them wouldn't have a clue.
We have enough legal rule regurgitators and bean counters, we need a far
broader base of skills in parliament.

--
Spud

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 11:34:52 on Fri, 11 Nov 2016,
Graeme Wall remarked:
It takes two years, not shorter, not longer.

It could be a lot longer than two years to sort out all the
consequential matters. At the end of 2y the danger is that the UK will
out on its arse without important matters all being settled. HMG's
version as repeated (and apparently not disputed) by the Daily Diana
[http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...-negotiations]
is "up to a decade or more of uncertainty".

For once the Dead Princess charlatans have got it right, more august
commentators reckon at least 10 years. The basics though are, once May
invokes Article 50 it is two years to exit regardless of what has or
hasn't been sorted. Won't be any quicker just because Liam says it will.

And I honestly don't what the calls for a referendum on the result of the
negotiations is trying to achieve. If that referendum votes "no" we'll be
exiting (because that's inevitable) with a blank sheet of paper as an
agreement.

The people asking for it are Remoaners who seem to think that the
alternative option will be "staying in"

tim