On 2017-02-02 12:27:19 +0000, tim... said:

unfortunately, the majority of Remainers don't accept it and many of
them are vocal at denying it.

Because, as per my previous posting, it is completely false. Not every
Brexit voter wanted a hard Brexit, therefore there is very unlikely to
be a majority mandate for a hard Brexit, particularly as most Remain
voters would, if Brexit was chosen, want as soft a Brexit as possible.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

In message , at 13:26:46 on Thu, 2 Feb
2017, Neil Williams remarked:

But they were falsely persuaded that a "soft Brexit" was even a vague
possibility.

It was and still is. Not likely, but possible.

You've obviously not been following the recent politics of this.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...kingdoms-exit-
from-and-new-partnership-with-the-european-union-white-paper

--
Roland Perry

tim... wrote:


"Roland Perry" wrote in message
news
In message , at 14:52:24 on
Wed, 1 Feb 2017, remarked:
Membership of EFTA requires remaining in the SM with FoM

So not really a Brexit at all.

Not what Norway think.

http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/immigration-and-justice/norway-and-switzerland/

An anti-EU group, I see. Norway and Switzerland are in the Schengen zone
which is not part of this discussion.

Why would we be different?

If we were the same, it wouldn't be a Brexit in any sense that was
campaigned for.

Not a universal view, especially as expressed before 23rd June 2016.

I'm fed up with arguing what people did or didn't vote for when there are
polls which show conclusively that the "leave" people wanted a hard Brexit
by a country mile (an order of magnitude more than the winning vote
margin) and also closer examination shows the various "Norway/Singapore"
soft Brexits were never a realistic proposition.

much respect for you for taking that position

unfortunately, the majority of Remainers don't accept it and many of them
are vocal at denying it.

I think most remainers reluctantly accept that Brexit is a reality, and
that it's likely to be a hard Brexit, though hopefully with a reasonable
FTA with the EU.

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Roland Perry" wrote in message
news
In message , at 14:52:24
on
Wed, 1 Feb 2017, remarked:
Membership of EFTA requires remaining in the SM with FoM

So not really a Brexit at all.

Not what Norway think.

http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/immigration-and-justice/norway-and-switzerland/

An anti-EU group, I see. Norway and Switzerland are in the Schengen
zone
which is not part of this discussion.

Why would we be different?

If we were the same, it wouldn't be a Brexit in any sense that was
campaigned for.

Not a universal view, especially as expressed before 23rd June 2016.

I'm fed up with arguing what people did or didn't vote for when there
are
polls which show conclusively that the "leave" people wanted a hard
Brexit
by a country mile (an order of magnitude more than the winning vote
margin) and also closer examination shows the various "Norway/Singapore"
soft Brexits were never a realistic proposition.

much respect for you for taking that position

unfortunately, the majority of Remainers don't accept it and many of them
are vocal at denying it.

I think most remainers reluctantly accept that Brexit is a reality,

That's true but it's not the same thing

and
that it's likely to be a hard Brexit, though hopefully with a reasonable
FTA with the EU.

Hopefully, but we all, or rather all of the people with power, have to pull
in the same direction to make it more likely.

tim

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On 2017-02-02 12:27:19 +0000, tim... said:

unfortunately, the majority of Remainers don't accept it and many of them
are vocal at denying it.

Because, as per my previous posting, it is completely false. Not every
Brexit voter wanted a hard Brexit,

well that depends upon you (/Roland's) definition of Hard Brexit

For some people any deal at all that includes leaving the SM is a hard
Brexit

for others it is leaving without a deal and reverting to WTO tariffs (and
the nonsensical idea of becoming a tax haven)

therefore there is very unlikely to be a majority mandate for a hard
Brexit, particularly as most Remain voters would, if Brexit was chosen,
want as soft a Brexit as possible.

but always wanting significant restrictions to FoM

tim

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:26:46 on Thu, 2 Feb
2017, Neil Williams remarked:

But they were falsely persuaded that a "soft Brexit" was even a vague
possibility.

It was and still is. Not likely, but possible.

You've obviously not been following the recent politics of this.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...kingdoms-exit-
from-and-new-partnership-with-the-european-union-white-paper

well it is only hours old

In message , at 18:18:17 on Thu, 2 Feb 2017,
tim... remarked:

You've obviously not been following the recent politics of this.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...kingdoms-exit-
from-and-new-partnership-with-the-european-union-white-paper

well it is only hours old

But trailed for weeks.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 18:17:31 on Thu, 2 Feb 2017,
tim... remarked:
"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On 2017-02-02 12:27:19 +0000, tim... said:

unfortunately, the majority of Remainers don't accept it and many of
them are vocal at denying it.

Because, as per my previous posting, it is completely false. Not
every Brexit voter wanted a hard Brexit,

well that depends upon you (/Roland's) definition of Hard Brexit

For some people any deal at all that includes leaving the SM is a hard
Brexit

The two vital, and interlinked, aspects are leaving both the single
market and the free travel zone.

Everything else is a sideshow.

for others it is leaving without a deal and reverting to WTO tariffs
(and the nonsensical idea of becoming a tax haven)

WTO is such a basic backstop it isn't a serious opportunity to continue
trading on the same basis for the next decade.
--
Roland Perry

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 15:47:26 on Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Recliner
remarked:

I think most remainers reluctantly accept that Brexit is a reality, and
that it's likely to be a hard Brexit,

Yes.

though hopefully with a reasonable FTA with the EU.

In your dreams.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 18:17:31 on Thu, 2 Feb 2017,
tim... remarked:
"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On 2017-02-02 12:27:19 +0000, tim... said:

unfortunately, the majority of Remainers don't accept it and many of
them are vocal at denying it.

Because, as per my previous posting, it is completely false. Not every
Brexit voter wanted a hard Brexit,

well that depends upon you (/Roland's) definition of Hard Brexit

For some people any deal at all that includes leaving the SM is a hard
Brexit

The two vital, and interlinked, aspects are leaving both the single market
and the free travel zone.

We aren't in the free travel zone.


Everything else is a sideshow.

actually not

staying in, or not, the Customs Union has a very significant impact on trade

Most of those things that exporters of goods claim that we will lose/cost
them money by leaving the SM, are actually nothing to do with the SM and are
fully dependent on our membership, or not, of the CU.

I really can see, once everybody understand this, staying in the CU being an
acceptable option to all Leavers (who aren't wedded to FoM for their own
personal benefit/convictions).

It isn't going to please Liam Fox though.

for others it is leaving without a deal and reverting to WTO tariffs (and
the nonsensical idea of becoming a tax haven)

WTO is such a basic backstop it isn't a serious opportunity to continue
trading on the same basis for the next decade.

Well as your other post pooh-poohs the possibility of us negotiating an
immediate comprehensive [1] trade deal (I don't think it needs to be
entirely "Free").

That's what we are going to get, isn't it

tim

[1] it needs to be comprehensive because (AIUI) WTO rules require that.