In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
14:52:24 on Wed, 1 Feb 2017, remarked:
Membership of EFTA requires remaining in the SM with FoM

So not really a Brexit at all.

Not what Norway think.


http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligenc.../norway-and-sw
itzerland/

An anti-EU group, I see. Norway and Switzerland are in the Schengen zone
which is not part of this discussion.

Why would we be different?

If we were the same, it wouldn't be a Brexit in any sense that was
campaigned for.

Not a universal view, especially as expressed before 23rd June 2016.

I'm fed up with arguing what people did or didn't vote for when there
are polls which show conclusively that the "leave" people wanted a
hard Brexit by a country mile (an order of magnitude more than the
winning vote margin) and also closer examination shows the various
"Norway/Singapore" soft Brexits were never a realistic proposition.

A bit silly to rely on polls when the overwhelming majority rejected any
exit which would make them poorer.

The whole debate has been so dominated by fantastic promises, especially
from Brexiters, that paradoxical poll positions have been inevitable.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at 18:18:17 on Thu, 2 Feb
2017, tim... remarked:

You've obviously not been following the recent politics of this.


https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-exit-from-and
-new-partnership-with-the-european-union-white-paper

well it is only hours old

But trailed for weeks.

and promises "What we have come up with ... is the idea of a comprehensive
free trade agreement and a comprehensive customs agreement _that will
deliver the exact same benefits as we have._"

So either we stay in the single market or this is pure fantasy. The
Government will be held to this promise.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at 12:29:27 on Thu, 2 Feb
2017, tim... remarked:
Membership of EFTA requires remaining in the SM with FoM

So not really a Brexit at all.

Not what Norway think.

that's not what I read

All the negatives of being in, but none of the positives

sorry, can't find a link

I didn't say they liked it, just that they know they are NOT in the EU.

Only in the box ticking sense on not being in

The point is that many of them say "it feels like we are in,

still get to pay, still get to follow orders from Brussels, still
have freedom of movement

Except on fishing.

but don't get Vote"

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote:
In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at 18:18:17 on Thu, 2 Feb
2017, tim... remarked:

You've obviously not been following the recent politics of this.


https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-exit-from-and
-new-partnership-with-the-european-union-white-paper

well it is only hours old

But trailed for weeks.

and promises "What we have come up with ... is the idea of a comprehensive
free trade agreement and a comprehensive customs agreement _that will
deliver the exact same benefits as we have._"

So either we stay in the single market or this is pure fantasy. The
Government will be held to this promise.

Is it a promise, or just an objective? The government is in no position to
promise what the result of a multi-year negotiation will be. It can declare
a public target for the final agreement, and have a private, more
realistic, assessment of what deal is possible, but no more. It may have a
minimum fall-back position, but certainly won't be disclosing it.

So this white paper cannot be any more than a wish list, just like the EU'S
hope for a €60bn alimony.

wrote in message
...
In article , (Roland
Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
14:52:24 on Wed, 1 Feb 2017, remarked:
Membership of EFTA requires remaining in the SM with FoM

So not really a Brexit at all.

Not what Norway think.


http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligenc.../norway-and-sw
itzerland/

An anti-EU group, I see. Norway and Switzerland are in the Schengen zone
which is not part of this discussion.

Why would we be different?

If we were the same, it wouldn't be a Brexit in any sense that was
campaigned for.

Not a universal view, especially as expressed before 23rd June 2016.

I'm fed up with arguing what people did or didn't vote for when there
are polls which show conclusively that the "leave" people wanted a
hard Brexit by a country mile (an order of magnitude more than the
winning vote margin) and also closer examination shows the various
"Norway/Singapore" soft Brexits were never a realistic proposition.

A bit silly to rely on polls when the overwhelming majority rejected any
exit which would make them poorer.

how do you know this?

I've never seen reports of a survey that asked

All I have see is politicians spouting it like its "obvious" (which to them,
it is) (and then misusing it to imply that no-one voted for anyone to be
poorer)

The whole debate has been so dominated by fantastic promises, especially
from Brexiters, that paradoxical poll positions have been inevitable.

As it is with staying in ("to change it" as just one example)

tim

wrote in message
...
In article , (Roland
Perry)
wrote:

In message , at 12:29:27 on Thu, 2 Feb
2017, tim... remarked:
Membership of EFTA requires remaining in the SM with FoM

So not really a Brexit at all.

Not what Norway think.

that's not what I read

All the negatives of being in, but none of the positives

sorry, can't find a link

I didn't say they liked it, just that they know they are NOT in the
EU.

Only in the box ticking sense on not being in

The point is that many of them say "it feels like we are in,

still get to pay, still get to follow orders from Brussels, still
have freedom of movement

Except on fishing.

big deal!!!!!

In message , at 18:33:53
on Thu, 2 Feb 2017, remarked:
You've obviously not been following the recent politics of this.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-united-kingdoms-exit-from-and-new-partnership-with-the-european-union-white-paper

well it is only hours old

But trailed for weeks.

and promises "What we have come up with ... is the idea of a comprehensive
free trade agreement and a comprehensive customs agreement _that will
deliver the exact same benefits as we have._"

So either we stay in the single market or this is pure fantasy. The
Government will be held to this promise.

That appears to say they'll come up with an idea. Nothing about
delivering it.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 19:48:47 on Thu, 2 Feb 2017,
tim... remarked:

For some people any deal at all that includes leaving the SM is a
hard Brexit

The two vital, and interlinked, aspects are leaving both the single
market and the free travel zone.

We aren't in the free travel zone.

sigh free movement zone.

Everything else is a sideshow.

[1] it needs to be comprehensive because (AIUI) WTO rules require that.

Such a vast over-simplification it beggars any response.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 15:11:53
on Thu, 2 Feb 2017, remarked:

I'm fed up with arguing what people did or didn't vote for when there
are polls which show conclusively that the "leave" people wanted a
hard Brexit by a country mile (an order of magnitude more than the
winning vote margin) and also closer examination shows the various
"Norway/Singapore" soft Brexits were never a realistic proposition.

A bit silly to rely on polls when the overwhelming majority rejected any
exit which would make them poorer.

I didn't see that box on the ballot paper.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 09:12:27 on Fri, 3 Feb 2017,
tim... remarked:

A bit silly to rely on polls when the overwhelming majority rejected any
exit which would make them poorer.

how do you know this?

I've never seen reports of a survey that asked

There's been a recent poll which indicates (iirc) that sufficient
Brexiters to have swung the vote believed they wouldn't be poorer, but
that it's obvious they will be, would like to change their mind.
--
Roland Perry