wrote in message
...
In article , (tim...)
wrote:



from Brexiters, that paradoxical poll positions have been inevitable.

As it is with staying in ("to change it" as just one example)

Not as much but not entirely absent, I concede. And consequences of
leaving
will undoubtedly be far worse.

That depends upon how much you "fear" the political changes of staying in

wrote in message
...
In article , (tim...)
wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Roland Perry) wrote:

In message , at 12:29:27 on Thu, 2 Feb
2017, tim... remarked:
Membership of EFTA requires remaining in the SM with FoM

So not really a Brexit at all.

Not what Norway think.

that's not what I read

All the negatives of being in, but none of the positives

sorry, can't find a link

I didn't say they liked it, just that they know they are NOT in the
EU.

Only in the box ticking sense on not being in

The point is that many of them say "it feels like we are in,

still get to pay, still get to follow orders from Brussels, still
have freedom of movement

Except on fishing.

big deal!!!!!

It is in Norway!

I meant "for us"

tim

In message , at 13:00:55 on Sat, 4 Feb 2017,
tim... remarked:

I think you are unwilling to engage because you simply don't
understand what being a member of the CU brings us (which ISTM just
proved my other point that few people understand its significance)

I'm unwilling to engage, because I'm sick of talking to brick walls.

Oh come on

I've made a substantive new point

No, it's all very old news.

We aren't discussing whether it is new or old news

we are discussing your claim that it is a sideshow (well I am
discussing it, you are just dismissing it)

It isn't

Says the brick wall.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 13:02:35 on Sat, 4 Feb 2017,
tim... remarked:
that sufficient Brexiters to have swung the vote believed they
wouldn't be poorer, but that it's obvious they will be,

why it is obvious that THEY will be?

Exchange rates,

OK I'll give you that

loss of EU grants,

most of these will carry on out of HMG's budget

Extraordinarily unlikely. I don't know how many grants you've applied
for from Westminster vs Brussels, but the latter go through as a
tedious but somewhat inevitable bureaucratic process once the point
of the grant category has been established.

The former have to be fought tooth and nail as special cases, even
when funds have allegedly been allocated to the subject, except what
they fail to say is that by the time they announce "funding for..."
it's all been allocated to their pre=chosen acolytes.

trade barriers,

Not yet confirmed

But inevitable.

not if we stay in the Customs Unions

all of the barriers to trading with the EU are erected by the Custom's
Union, not the Single Market rules

cont'd: brick wall.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
news
In message , at 13:00:55 on Sat, 4 Feb 2017,
tim... remarked:

I think you are unwilling to engage because you simply don't
understand what being a member of the CU brings us (which ISTM just
proved my other point that few people understand its significance)

I'm unwilling to engage, because I'm sick of talking to brick walls.

Oh come on

I've made a substantive new point

No, it's all very old news.

We aren't discussing whether it is new or old news

we are discussing your claim that it is a sideshow (well I am discussing
it, you are just dismissing it)

It isn't

Says the brick wall.

says Mr Pot

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:02:35 on Sat, 4 Feb 2017,
tim... remarked:
that sufficient Brexiters to have swung the vote believed they
wouldn't be poorer, but that it's obvious they will be,

why it is obvious that THEY will be?

Exchange rates,

OK I'll give you that

loss of EU grants,

most of these will carry on out of HMG's budget

Extraordinarily unlikely. I don't know how many grants you've applied
for from Westminster vs Brussels, but the latter go through as a
tedious but somewhat inevitable bureaucratic process once the point of
the grant category has been established.

The former have to be fought tooth and nail as special cases, even when
funds have allegedly been allocated to the subject, except what they
fail to say is that by the time they announce "funding for..." it's all
been allocated to their pre=chosen acolytes.

trade barriers,

Not yet confirmed

But inevitable.

not if we stay in the Customs Unions

all of the barriers to trading with the EU are erected by the Custom's
Union, not the Single Market rules

cont'd: brick wall.

I really am fed up with this

I have made a claim

which you have made no attempt to counter with argument

and are just complaining that I repeat it

I am repeating it because you answer it in this way

The fact that you saw the need to reply at all means that you must believe
that it has some merit otherwise the usual response would be to ignore it

but you didn't

tim

In message , at 17:10:44 on Sat, 4 Feb 2017,
tim... remarked:

I think you are unwilling to engage because you simply don't
understand what being a member of the CU brings us (which ISTM
just proved my other point that few people understand its significance)

I'm unwilling to engage, because I'm sick of talking to brick walls.

Oh come on

I've made a substantive new point

No, it's all very old news.

We aren't discussing whether it is new or old news

we are discussing your claim that it is a sideshow (well I am
discussing it, you are just dismissing it)

It isn't

Says the brick wall.

says Mr Pot

For that to stick, you'll have spend several paragraphs explaining what
the CU will bring us, rather than just assert it would be desirable.

Bearing in mind things like if we were in the customs union we would not
be free to negotiate trade deals with the RoW, because an inherent part
of it is that such trade deals are negotiated by Brussels.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 17:10:44 on Sat, 4 Feb 2017,
tim... remarked:

I think you are unwilling to engage because you simply don't
understand what being a member of the CU brings us (which ISTM just
proved my other point that few people understand its significance)

I'm unwilling to engage, because I'm sick of talking to brick walls.

Oh come on

I've made a substantive new point

No, it's all very old news.

We aren't discussing whether it is new or old news

we are discussing your claim that it is a sideshow (well I am
discussing it, you are just dismissing it)

It isn't

Says the brick wall.

says Mr Pot

For that to stick, you'll have spend several paragraphs explaining what
the CU will bring us, rather than just assert it would be desirable.

it brings us (for goods):

tariff free trade
ease of customs documentation at borders
"country of origin" rules for "supply chain" industries (Automotive being
the most important example)

The Remaoners say that we lose these things by leaving the SM - WRONG!!!!!

Of course it doesn't solve the (financial) services issues, but it doesn't
harm them either.

Bearing in mind things like if we were in the customs union we would not
be free to negotiate trade deals with the RoW, because an inherent part of
it is that such trade deals are negotiated by Brussels.

Agreed, that is the down side (if you look back in this tread I think you
will see that I have already said it)

tim

In message , at 11:58:26 on Sun, 5 Feb 2017,
tim... remarked:

explaining what the CU will bring us, rather than just assert it
would be desirable.

it brings us (for goods):

tariff free trade

Only to the EU.

ease of customs documentation at borders

The remoaners are probably conflating the "freedom of shipment" stuff
you mention above with "the single market".

"country of origin" rules for "supply chain" industries (Automotive
being the most important example)

My understanding is that's a Single Market thing, not CU.

The Remaoners say that we lose these things by leaving the SM - WRONG!!!!!

--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 11:58:26 on Sun, 5 Feb 2017,
tim... remarked:

explaining what the CU will bring us, rather than just assert it would
be desirable.

it brings us (for goods):

tariff free trade

Only to the EU.

Of course, that is what all the arguments are about :-(

ease of customs documentation at borders

The remoaners are probably conflating the "freedom of shipment" stuff you
mention above with "the single market".

some of them are deliberately confusing it, others just don't understand

"country of origin" rules for "supply chain" industries (Automotive being
the most important example)

My understanding is that's a Single Market thing, not CU.

Then your understanding is wrong

tim