On 10/02/2017 12:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 10/02/2017 09:54, d wrote:
On Thu, 09 Feb 2017 19:42:06 +0000
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:37:46 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:04:47 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
The vast majority of freight is hauled by class 66 and 70 diesels and the
main electric freight loco the class 92 can run off 3rd rail anyway.

The main electric freight loco is the class 90. Class 92s are little used.

You sure about that? I thought the 90 was a passenger loco that only
occasionally did light freight because its built for high speed, not
pulling
power.

When did you last see a class 92 hauling anything? Most electric freight
are hauled by class 90s.

Class 92s tend to be seen with Channel Tunnel traffic, there is no
current reason for them to be preferred over straight 25kV locos away
from such traffic.

So there's no freight on southern region then?

Al diesel hauled round here, which is why they are discussing the
"electric spine" running 25kV from Reading to Southampton.



The problem with electric freight on 3rd rail is that the current drawn to
move a competitive-sized freight at a competitive speed, is very close to
the current at which the circuit breakers trip.


Which is why, I suspect, the 92s were never very useful.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In article , (Anna
Noyd-Dryver) wrote:

Graeme Wall wrote:
On 10/02/2017 09:54, d wrote:
On Thu, 09 Feb 2017 19:42:06 +0000
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:37:46 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:04:47 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
The vast majority of freight is hauled by class 66 and 70 diesels
and the main electric freight loco the class 92 can run off 3rd
rail anyway.

The main electric freight loco is the class 90. Class 92s are
little used.

You sure about that? I thought the 90 was a passenger loco that only
occasionally did light freight because its built for high speed, not
pulling power.

When did you last see a class 92 hauling anything? Most electric
freight are hauled by class 90s.

Class 92s tend to be seen with Channel Tunnel traffic, there is no
current reason for them to be preferred over straight 25kV locos away
from such traffic.

So there's no freight on southern region then?

Al diesel hauled round here, which is why they are discussing the
"electric spine" running 25kV from Reading to Southampton.

The problem with electric freight on 3rd rail is that the current drawn to
move a competitive-sized freight at a competitive speed, is very close to
the current at which the circuit breakers trip.

Hence my comments on self-education. You just can't get the power out of 3rd
rail systems for heavy and fast trains. Look at the ludicrously low speeds
Eurostars were reduced to on Kent gradients before HS1 enabled them to
abandon the 3rd rail. They just couldn't get enough juice. The issue with
freight trains is even worse. Look at the power ratings of class 86 and 73
electrics. The latter were pitiful compared to the former. Things are far
worse today with 86s puny compared to 90s.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , d () wrote:

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 05:25:55 -0600
wrote:
In article , d () wrote:

On Thu, 09 Feb 2017 14:26:50 -0600
wrote:
In article , d () wrote:
Of course, if they'd simply installed 3rd rail they could have done
it in a couple of months while the line carried on running. But
thanks to stupid DoT rules about no new 3rd rail they've had to
close the line for god knows how long inconveniencing 10s of
thousands of people and spent 100m.

I see our know-nothing Kipper correspondent has just excelled himself
with his ignorance of electrical engineering. Not for nothing has all
the third rail in North London been replaced with 25KV overhead
electrification. A period of self-education would now be in order.

Has it? Guess you haven't been on the ELL at highbury yet then. You'll
bein for a surprise. They only laid it a few years back too.

A line with no connections to the North London network. One was installed
at Highbury (only for stock transfers) but has never been commissioned.

You said north london, not the north london line. Since you're such a
pedant you should get these things right.

Actually, all the third rail had been removed before the East London was
extended northwards to Highbury & Islington.

It seems to have escaped your notice that the North London was once 3rd
rail electrified all the way to North Woolwich. None north and east of
Mitre Bridge Junction now.

I'm prefectly well aware of the that. Your point is what exactly? That
because 3rd rail was removed it can't be put back because of some moronic
DoT regulation? No, lets just inconvenience thousands for months and
spend 130m quid instead, far better.

Go and learn some power electricity and stop talking out of your rear
orifice. It was removed because 3rd rail just couldn't meet the needs of
modern electric trains and couldn't meet freight needs at all.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Graeme
Wall) wrote:

On 10/02/2017 12:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 10/02/2017 09:54, d wrote:
On Thu, 09 Feb 2017 19:42:06 +0000
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:37:46 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:04:47 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
The vast majority of freight is hauled by class 66 and 70 diesels
and the main electric freight loco the class 92 can run off 3rd
rail anyway.

The main electric freight loco is the class 90. Class 92s are
little used.

You sure about that? I thought the 90 was a passenger loco that
only occasionally did light freight because its built for high
speed, not pulling power.

When did you last see a class 92 hauling anything? Most electric
freight are hauled by class 90s.

Class 92s tend to be seen with Channel Tunnel traffic, there is no
current reason for them to be preferred over straight 25kV locos away
from such traffic.

So there's no freight on southern region then?

Al diesel hauled round here, which is why they are discussing the
"electric spine" running 25kV from Reading to Southampton.

The problem with electric freight on 3rd rail is that the current drawn
to move a competitive-sized freight at a competitive speed, is very
close to the current at which the circuit breakers trip.

Which is why, I suspect, the 92s were never very useful.

I thought their main problem was electrical interference fed back into the
power supply and signalling systems. I understand this is still being worked
on with solutions hoped for imminently, by Caledonian Sleepers at least.
Their needs are AC only of course.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 12:02:15 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:

I've never seen either on the NLL tbh. When I used to get the ELL from
highbury I saw maybe 1 freight train a week and without exception they
were all hauled by diesels.


Is that perhaps because the GOBLIN hasn't been electrified yet....??

FFS, its like talking to geese.


There's no electric freight on the NLL because the next bit of line isn't
electrified, so we shouldn't electrify that bit of line because there's no
electric freight? Is there a hole in your bucket?


Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message , at 07:16:06
on Fri, 10 Feb 2017, remarked:

You just can't get the power out of 3rd
rail systems for heavy and fast trains. Look at the ludicrously low speeds
Eurostars were reduced to on Kent gradients before HS1 enabled them to
abandon the 3rd rail. They just couldn't get enough juice.

And that was *after* beefing up the power supply from the normal.
--
Roland Perry

On 2017\02\10 13:29, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 12:02:15 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:

I've never seen either on the NLL tbh. When I used to get the ELL from
highbury I saw maybe 1 freight train a week and without exception they
were all hauled by diesels.


Is that perhaps because the GOBLIN hasn't been electrified yet....??

FFS, its like talking to geese.

There's no electric freight on the NLL because the next bit of line isn't
electrified, so we shouldn't electrify that bit of line because there's no
electric freight? Is there a hole in your bucket?

For once, Spud is in the right. Look at a map.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...ions%20Map.pdf

The trains passing through Highbury, which is a little north-east of
Kings Cross, do not use the Goblin, which is the orange line further
north. If anything, the electrification of the Goblin will reduce
electric freight thorough Highbury.

(The somewhat significant connection from Woodgrange Park to Forest Gate
in east London is not shown on that map.)

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 13:29:21 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 12:02:15 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:

I've never seen either on the NLL tbh. When I used to get the ELL from
highbury I saw maybe 1 freight train a week and without exception they
were all hauled by diesels.


Is that perhaps because the GOBLIN hasn't been electrified yet....??

FFS, its like talking to geese.


There's no electric freight on the NLL because the next bit of line isn't
electrified, so we shouldn't electrify that bit of line because there's no
electric freight? Is there a hole in your bucket?

Highbury isn't on the Gospel Oak to barking line you numpty!

--
Spud

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 07:16:06 -0600
wrote:
In article , d () wrote:
You said north london, not the north london line. Since you're such a
pedant you should get these things right.

Actually, all the third rail had been removed before the East London was
extended northwards to Highbury & Islington.

And? There is 3rd rail in north london, and not just there - all the way to
watford too.

I'm prefectly well aware of the that. Your point is what exactly? That
because 3rd rail was removed it can't be put back because of some moronic
DoT regulation? No, lets just inconvenience thousands for months and
spend 130m quid instead, far better.

Go and learn some power electricity and stop talking out of your rear
orifice. It was removed because 3rd rail just couldn't meet the needs of
modern electric trains and couldn't meet freight needs at all.

Sorry, which modern electric trains exactly - the 378s which run on the NLL
*and* the 3rd rail ELL all the way down to crystal palace? Do they run faster
or with better acceleration on the NLL then?

--
Spud

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 13:29:21 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 12:02:15 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:

I've never seen either on the NLL tbh. When I used to get the ELL from
highbury I saw maybe 1 freight train a week and without exception they
were all hauled by diesels.


Is that perhaps because the GOBLIN hasn't been electrified yet....??

FFS, its like talking to geese.


There's no electric freight on the NLL because the next bit of line isn't
electrified, so we shouldn't electrify that bit of line because there's no
electric freight? Is there a hole in your bucket?


Anna Noyd-Dryver

So, when Freightliner uses pairs of 86's or a 90 from Ipswich Yard to
Mossend / Coatbridge, how would they reach the West Coat Mainline?

Answer, turn right at Stratford onto the N.L.L., proceed to Camden
Road & either go straight on to Primrose Hill & join the Slow Lines
out of Euston, or, turn right at Camden Road,, proceed to just before
Willesden Jct, H,L. & take the connection to the the slow lines there.

When the Goblin is opened to electric traction, it will provide a
useful short-cut avoiding Stratford & Forest Gate Jct.

Simples............

DC

PS,

As for relaying a DC 3rd rail on a 25kV AC railway, there are
electrical "complications " regarding return currents & signalling.

There are good reasons why " they" reduced the dual voltage sections
of the NLL to the minimum possible length, & why the connecting track
at Highbury isn't electrified.

---
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