On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 12:55:48 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 10/02/2017 12:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 10/02/2017 09:54, d wrote:
On Thu, 09 Feb 2017 19:42:06 +0000
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:37:46 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:04:47 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
The vast majority of freight is hauled by class 66 and 70 diesels and the
main electric freight loco the class 92 can run off 3rd rail anyway.

The main electric freight loco is the class 90. Class 92s are little used.

You sure about that? I thought the 90 was a passenger loco that only
occasionally did light freight because its built for high speed, not
pulling
power.

When did you last see a class 92 hauling anything? Most electric freight
are hauled by class 90s.

Class 92s tend to be seen with Channel Tunnel traffic, there is no
current reason for them to be preferred over straight 25kV locos away
from such traffic.

So there's no freight on southern region then?

Al diesel hauled round here, which is why they are discussing the
"electric spine" running 25kV from Reading to Southampton.



The problem with electric freight on 3rd rail is that the current drawn to
move a competitive-sized freight at a competitive speed, is very close to
the current at which the circuit breakers trip.


Which is why, I suspect, the 92s were never very useful.

That must be why can be seen hauling trains on the West London Line
south of North Pole Junction.

On 10/02/2017 16:50, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 12:55:48 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 10/02/2017 12:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 10/02/2017 09:54, d wrote:
On Thu, 09 Feb 2017 19:42:06 +0000
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:37:46 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:04:47 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
The vast majority of freight is hauled by class 66 and 70 diesels and the
main electric freight loco the class 92 can run off 3rd rail anyway.

The main electric freight loco is the class 90. Class 92s are little used.

You sure about that? I thought the 90 was a passenger loco that only
occasionally did light freight because its built for high speed, not
pulling
power.

When did you last see a class 92 hauling anything? Most electric freight
are hauled by class 90s.

Class 92s tend to be seen with Channel Tunnel traffic, there is no
current reason for them to be preferred over straight 25kV locos away
from such traffic.

So there's no freight on southern region then?

Al diesel hauled round here, which is why they are discussing the
"electric spine" running 25kV from Reading to Southampton.



The problem with electric freight on 3rd rail is that the current drawn to
move a competitive-sized freight at a competitive speed, is very close to
the current at which the circuit breakers trip.


Which is why, I suspect, the 92s were never very useful.

That must be why can be seen hauling trains on the West London Line
south of North Pole Junction.


A far cry from their intended use.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In article , d () wrote:

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 07:16:06 -0600
wrote:
In article , d () wrote:
You said north london, not the north london line. Since you're such a
pedant you should get these things right.

Actually, all the third rail had been removed before the East London was
extended northwards to Highbury & Islington.

And? There is 3rd rail in north london, and not just there - all the
way to watford too.

From Euston because of the interworking with the Bakerloo Line but on no
other routes around there now. And the route almost entirely parallels a
25KV electrified route between Euston and Watford Junction.

I'm prefectly well aware of the that. Your point is what exactly? That
because 3rd rail was removed it can't be put back because of some
moronic DoT regulation? No, lets just inconvenience thousands for
months and spend 130m quid instead, far better.

Go and learn some power electricity and stop talking out of your rear
orifice. It was removed because 3rd rail just couldn't meet the needs of
modern electric trains and couldn't meet freight needs at all.

Sorry, which modern electric trains exactly - the 378s which run on
the NLL *and* the 3rd rail ELL all the way down to crystal palace? Do
they run faster
or with better acceleration on the NLL then?

3rd rail is fine for frequent suburban and metro services but increasingly
hopeless for long distance passenger and freight services. The huge benefit
derived from power electronics is that dual system trains are so much
cheaper and more versatile so there is no reason to keep third rail where
25KV would allow bore versatile traffic, hence the electric spine
re-powering project. It may have been ahead of its time but it will come so
freights too heavy for diesel haulage can run in and out of Southampton.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 11:13:54 -0600, wrote:

In article , d () wrote:

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 07:16:06 -0600
wrote:
In article , d () wrote:
You said north london, not the north london line. Since you're such a
pedant you should get these things right.

Actually, all the third rail had been removed before the East London was
extended northwards to Highbury & Islington.

And? There is 3rd rail in north london, and not just there - all the
way to watford too.

From Euston because of the interworking with the Bakerloo Line but on no
other routes around there now. And the route almost entirely parallels a
25KV electrified route between Euston and Watford Junction.

I'm prefectly well aware of the that. Your point is what exactly? That
because 3rd rail was removed it can't be put back because of some
moronic DoT regulation? No, lets just inconvenience thousands for
months and spend 130m quid instead, far better.

Go and learn some power electricity and stop talking out of your rear
orifice. It was removed because 3rd rail just couldn't meet the needs of
modern electric trains and couldn't meet freight needs at all.

Sorry, which modern electric trains exactly - the 378s which run on
the NLL *and* the 3rd rail ELL all the way down to crystal palace? Do
they run faster
or with better acceleration on the NLL then?

3rd rail is fine for frequent suburban and metro services but increasingly
hopeless for long distance passenger and freight services. The huge benefit
derived from power electronics is that dual system trains are so much
cheaper and more versatile so there is no reason to keep third rail where
25KV would allow bore versatile traffic, hence the electric spine
re-powering project. It may have been ahead of its time but it will come so
freights too heavy for diesel haulage can run in and out of Southampton.

Time to bring back 6.25kv for lines with close clearances?

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 17:07:09 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 10/02/2017 16:50, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 12:55:48 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 10/02/2017 12:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 10/02/2017 09:54, d wrote:
On Thu, 09 Feb 2017 19:42:06 +0000
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:37:46 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:04:47 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
The vast majority of freight is hauled by class 66 and 70 diesels and the
main electric freight loco the class 92 can run off 3rd rail anyway.

The main electric freight loco is the class 90. Class 92s are little used.

You sure about that? I thought the 90 was a passenger loco that only
occasionally did light freight because its built for high speed, not
pulling
power.

When did you last see a class 92 hauling anything? Most electric freight
are hauled by class 90s.

Class 92s tend to be seen with Channel Tunnel traffic, there is no
current reason for them to be preferred over straight 25kV locos away
from such traffic.

So there's no freight on southern region then?

Al diesel hauled round here, which is why they are discussing the
"electric spine" running 25kV from Reading to Southampton.



The problem with electric freight on 3rd rail is that the current drawn to
move a competitive-sized freight at a competitive speed, is very close to
the current at which the circuit breakers trip.


Which is why, I suspect, the 92s were never very useful.

That must be why can be seen hauling trains on the West London Line
south of North Pole Junction.


A far cry from their intended use.

How not ?
North of North Pole - 25kV
South of North Pole - 750V
Even further south - Dollands Moor and Channel Tunnel
Behind the loco - usually a block train, often formed of foreign
vehicles

A quick whizz through today's allocated (but not necessarily used)
freight paths through Shepherds Bush to Dollands Moor shows mainly
diesel haulage but trains from the same origin (usually Wembley or
Trafford Park) can be either diesel or electric hauled, possibly not
always as seen specified in RTT.

On 10/02/2017 12:55, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 10/02/2017 12:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 10/02/2017 09:54, d wrote:
On Thu, 09 Feb 2017 19:42:06 +0000 Charles Ellson
wrote:
On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:37:46 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:04:47 -0000 (UTC) Recliner
wrote:
wrote:
The vast majority of freight is hauled by class 66
and 70 diesels and the main electric freight loco the
class 92 can run off 3rd rail anyway.

The main electric freight loco is the class 90. Class
92s are little used.

You sure about that? I thought the 90 was a passenger
loco that only occasionally did light freight because its
built for high speed, not
pulling
power.

When did you last see a class 92 hauling anything? Most
electric freight are hauled by class 90s.

Class 92s tend to be seen with Channel Tunnel traffic, there
is no current reason for them to be preferred over straight
25kV locos away from such traffic.

So there's no freight on southern region then?

Al diesel hauled round here, which is why they are discussing
the "electric spine" running 25kV from Reading to Southampton.



The problem with electric freight on 3rd rail is that the current
drawn to move a competitive-sized freight at a competitive speed,
is very close to the current at which the circuit breakers trip.


Which is why, I suspect, the 92s were never very useful.


Plus, I understand that an original plan was for Class 92s to take
freights beyond Frethun in France, but for various reasons, that never
happened.

On 2017\02\10 16:50, David C wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 13:29:21 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:

There's no electric freight on the NLL because the next bit of line isn't
electrified, so we shouldn't electrify that bit of line because there's no
electric freight? Is there a hole in your bucket?

So, when Freightliner uses pairs of 86's or a 90 from Ipswich Yard to
Mossend / Coatbridge, how would they reach the West Coat Mainline?

Answer, turn right at Stratford onto the N.L.L., proceed to Camden
Road & either go straight on to Primrose Hill & join the Slow Lines
out of Euston, or, turn right at Camden Road,, proceed to just before
Willesden Jct, H,L. & take the connection to the the slow lines there.

When the Goblin is opened to electric traction, it will provide a
useful short-cut avoiding Stratford & Forest Gate Jct.

No, there is no route from Ipswich to the Goblin without reversing at
Forest Gate and Woodgrange Park.

On 2017\02\10 23:42, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2017\02\10 16:50, David C wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 13:29:21 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:

There's no electric freight on the NLL because the next bit of line
isn't
electrified, so we shouldn't electrify that bit of line because
there's no
electric freight? Is there a hole in your bucket?

So, when Freightliner uses pairs of 86's or a 90 from Ipswich Yard to
Mossend / Coatbridge, how would they reach the West Coat Mainline?

Answer, turn right at Stratford onto the N.L.L., proceed to Camden
Road & either go straight on to Primrose Hill & join the Slow Lines
out of Euston, or, turn right at Camden Road,, proceed to just before
Willesden Jct, H,L. & take the connection to the the slow lines there.

When the Goblin is opened to electric traction, it will provide a
useful short-cut avoiding Stratford & Forest Gate Jct.

No, there is no route from Ipswich to the Goblin

.... avoiding Stratford ...

without reversing at Forest Gate and Woodgrange Park.

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 23:42:46 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2017\02\10 16:50, David C wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 13:29:21 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:

There's no electric freight on the NLL because the next bit of line isn't
electrified, so we shouldn't electrify that bit of line because there's no
electric freight? Is there a hole in your bucket?

So, when Freightliner uses pairs of 86's or a 90 from Ipswich Yard to
Mossend / Coatbridge, how would they reach the West Coat Mainline?

Answer, turn right at Stratford onto the N.L.L., proceed to Camden
Road & either go straight on to Primrose Hill & join the Slow Lines
out of Euston, or, turn right at Camden Road,, proceed to just before
Willesden Jct, H,L. & take the connection to the the slow lines there.

When the Goblin is opened to electric traction, it will provide a
useful short-cut avoiding Stratford & Forest Gate Jct.

No, there is no route from Ipswich to the Goblin without reversing at
Forest Gate and Woodgrange Park.

I was thinking of any Class 92 worked trains from the HS1 connection
at Ripple Lane.........

Possibly any Class 88 hauled trains from London Gateway too.

DC

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On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 23:54:26 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 2017\02\10 23:42, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2017\02\10 16:50, David C wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 13:29:21 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:

There's no electric freight on the NLL because the next bit of line
isn't
electrified, so we shouldn't electrify that bit of line because
there's no
electric freight? Is there a hole in your bucket?

So, when Freightliner uses pairs of 86's or a 90 from Ipswich Yard to
Mossend / Coatbridge, how would they reach the West Coat Mainline?

Answer, turn right at Stratford onto the N.L.L., proceed to Camden
Road & either go straight on to Primrose Hill & join the Slow Lines
out of Euston, or, turn right at Camden Road,, proceed to just before
Willesden Jct, H,L. & take the connection to the the slow lines there.

When the Goblin is opened to electric traction, it will provide a
useful short-cut avoiding Stratford & Forest Gate Jct.

No, there is no route from Ipswich to the Goblin

... avoiding Stratford ...

without reversing at Forest Gate and Woodgrange Park.

I forgot that Tilbury Freightliner Terminal is wired & does &/or used
to have 86's working there via Barking.

They also could use the electrified Goblin to avoid Stratford!

DC

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