In message , at
15:17:50 on Sat, 8 Apr 2017, michael adams
remarked:
The wheel flats were not caused by lack of maintenance. They were
caused by drivers locking the brakes on slippery track, causing the
wheels to slide along the track, which creates a flat spot. That's a
combination of a possible lack of drivers' skills and LU's failure to
use the RAT frequently enough after Storm Angus brought down a lot of
leaves in a short period.

How is LU's failure to use the RAT frequently enough to keep the
track clear of leaves, not evidence of a lack of maintenance ?

Because in the case last year, the leaves fell pretty much all in one go
as the result on one storm.
--
Roland Perry

I've always wondered... do the wheel lathes merely subtract metal, so a
wheel with a three millimetre dent comes out losing three millimetres of
radius, or do they pour some liquid metal on the dent, wait for it to
cool and then lathe it down to the same radius as the rest of the wheel?

Basil Jet wrote:

I've always wondered... do the wheel lathes merely subtract metal, so a
wheel with a three millimetre dent comes out losing three millimetres of
radius, or do they pour some liquid metal on the dent, wait for it to
cool and then lathe it down to the same radius as the rest of the wheel?

I'm pretty sure they just skim material off. You couldn't add an alloy with
the right characteristics. It would also damage the wheel's heat treatment
if you poured liquid steel on to it.

Incidentally, it's a flat, not a dent. In effect, a section of the circular
profile has been planed off when the locked wheel slid along the track.

In article , (Basil Jet)
wrote:

I've always wondered... do the wheel lathes merely subtract metal, so
a wheel with a three millimetre dent comes out losing three
millimetres of radius, or do they pour some liquid metal on the dent,
wait for it to cool and then lathe it down to the same radius as the
rest of the wheel?

The former. The extra metal comes at the wheel replacement stage.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Recliner) wrote:

On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 13:41:52 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of
how and why the job is going down the pan?

Take for example the recent train shortages and restricted
running on the Piccadilly Line.

My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.

Not eventually, but as soon as possible. But the capacity of the wheel
lathe is limited, and it can't deal with a huge number of flat spots
overnight.

Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach
to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO
this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in
the first place.

The first the travelling public knew about any of this were stories of
drivers refusing to take out trains.

No, the trains were taken out of service because of severe wheels
flats. Nobody disputes that they needed to be taken out of service.

Which immediately put the drivers
in a bad light - they were simply being difficult - as with all their
actions. If it's not about money then 'its all politically motivated
etc. etc.

No, the wheel flats didn't put the drivers in a bad light.


Whereas in fact drivers should never find themselves in the position
where they're having to refuse take out trains as a direct result of
slipshod maintenance. As its their neck which will be on the line if
anything goes wrong.

Clearly they were correct in their refusal in this case, and for
outsiders there's no real way of knowing how many of their other concerns
are equally justified. As their public representatives, union officials
etc are either very poor communicators or are denied sufficient
opportunities to put over their case.

Basically in such a situation when its impossible to have any confidence
ether in the management of the organisation for whom you work or in the
ability your representatives to put over your case to the public
the job is indeed going down the pan.

I don't think the drivers were refusing to drive trains with wheel
flats. That was a different issue. They have variously complained of
door and brake problems, and you've confused two completely different
episodes.

The wheel flats were not caused by lack of maintenance. They were
caused by drivers locking the brakes on slippery track, causing the
wheels to slide along the track, which creates a flat spot. That's a
combination of a possible lack of drivers' skills and LU's failure to
use the RAT frequently enough after Storm Angus brought down a lot of
leaves in a short period.

If the trains had been newer, they'd have had WSP (Wheel Slide
Protection), which would have reduced the incidence of flats. They
would also have had wheels that were easier to swap in the depot. And
if they were older, they'd have had tread brakes. So the 1973 stock
trains are particularly vulnerable to wheel flats, and they happen to
run on a fairly leafy line.

See:

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2...em-with-the-pi
ccadilly-lines-trains/

That article doesn't identify the reason for not having the portable wheel
lathe last year. The answer is that Greater Anglia got in first and were
very grateful to have it to cut their wheel flats problem last autumn.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at
13:41:52 on Sat, 8 Apr 2017, michael adams
remarked:
My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.

Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach
to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO
this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the
first place.

If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination
of medium term weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only
way to prevent the wheel flats would be to stop running the trains. And
passengers already get cross when trains are scheduled to run slower in
leaf-fall season.

Having got the wheel flats, they literally can't be fixed overnight.
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
13:41:52 on Sat, 8 Apr 2017, michael adams
remarked:
My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.

Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach to
maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO this
isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the
first place.

If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a
combination of medium term weather conditions plus one of the big
storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats would be to stop
running the trains. And passengers already get cross when trains are
scheduled to run slower in leaf-fall season.

Having got the wheel flats, they literally can't be fixed overnight.

They would have been able to deal with the wheel flats a lot quicker but for
Greater Anglia getting the portable wheel lathe before them.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

"Roland Perry" wrote in message ...
In message , at 13:41:52 on Sat, 8
Apr 2017, michael adams remarked:
My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.

Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach
to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO
this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the
first place.

If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination of medium term
weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats
would be to stop running the trains.

Or how about taking the first two or three scheduled trains out of service,
in both directions on the Uxbridge line where most of the problems
appear to arise, and run the RAT up and down instead between Acton Town
and Uxbridge ?


michael adams

....





And
passengers already get cross when trains are scheduled to run slower in leaf-fall
season.

Having got the wheel flats, they literally can't be fixed overnight.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at
10:01:56 on Mon, 10 Apr 2017, michael adams
remarked:
My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.

Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach
to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO
this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the
first place.

If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination of medium term
weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats
would be to stop running the trains.

Or how about taking the first two or three scheduled trains out of service,
in both directions on the Uxbridge line where most of the problems
appear to arise, and run the RAT up and down instead between Acton Town
and Uxbridge ?

You are assuming they have such trains for the stretch from Acton Town
to Rayners Lane.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:01:56 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"Roland Perry" wrote in message ...
In message , at 13:41:52 on Sat, 8
Apr 2017, michael adams remarked:
My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.

Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach
to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO
this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the
first place.

If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination of medium term
weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats
would be to stop running the trains.

Or how about taking the first two or three scheduled trains out of service,
in both directions on the Uxbridge line where most of the problems
appear to arise, and run the RAT up and down instead between Acton Town
and Uxbridge ?

How many RATs does LU have that can run on the Piccadilly Line? In
fact, LU also ran the A-stock RAT on the Rayner's Lane to Ealing
Common section because of the problems.