On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44


snip

Judgment published this afternoon:

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/...2017/1290.html

Heathrow Airport's application for judicial review of the ORR's
decision is refused.


Remove 2001. to reply by email. I apologise for the inconvenience.

Ding Bat wrote:
On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 9:26:07 PM UTC+5:30, Recliner wrote:
Ding Bat wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 6:56:58 PM UTC+5:30, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:37:18 on
Tue, 23 May 2017, Recliner remarked:
"Lots of people fly into Heathrow wanting to visit ExCel? Really??"
During major exhibitions - yes - absolutely. For example, World Travel
Mart (held at Excel) is a "must attend" event in the travel business -
there are loads of people who fly in specifically to attend it. City
airport is much handier for Excel, but there are loads of places
(especially long haul) which don't have flights into City.

I'm aware of that show, and even have friends in that business (from
overseas) who exhibit. They fly in and out of Luton, incidentally.

It is, however, a tiny number of people compared to the million a day
who are predicted to use Crossrail, or the 80,000 a day who use
Heathrow.

Like other shows at Excel, it attracts about 15-20,000 a day, of whom
3,000 a day are actual travel buyers.

Out of that lot if more than 1,000 each of the three days have flown in
through Heathrow, rather than being based in the UK or using other
airports, E* etc to arrive from abroad, I'll eat my hat.

Of course, 1,000 top quality buyers is plenty if you have a selling
booth at WTM, but it's not a number to build a railway timetable around.

No, but we were discussing the attractions of Crossrail vs HEx. Any of
those visitors who currently use Heathrow and HEx will certainly
switch to Crossrail. And some who previously flew to Luton may switch
to LHR and Crossrail, too. Or they can change at Farringdon to
Crossrail.

It's just one example of the many flows that will use Crossrail rather
than HEx.

Yes, lots of "only quite a few" passengers.
--
Roland Perry

Does HEx have to continue to terminate at Paddington? Can't it go nonstop
to Paddington and then continue to Abbey Wood with the same stops as what
will replace Heathrow Connect?

Even if that were possible, how could it attract a premium fare in such a
case? And how could such a premium fare be enforced?

There would be more passengers available to pay a premium, to offset the
loss of passengers to the non-express Crossrail. Think Liverpool St to
Heathrow with its being express after Paddington. Some proportion of
passengers would choose to pay the premium for the time saving and if the
express is less full, they'd also be paying the premium for comfort (not
having to stand) if the premium keeps passenger count low enough for all,
or all in Heathrow designated carriages, to get seats. Remember that
standing would be more of a drag for those who have luggage.

How could it be express after Padd? The Crossrail tunnels connect to the
Relief, not the Main lines.

Anyway, it's now academic, as HAL has lost the case.

"Recliner" wrote in message
...

Anyway, it's now academic, as HAL has lost the case.


until they appeal :-)

(I have no idea if that is likely as the legal arguments on which they lost
are beyond me)

tim

tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...

Anyway, it's now academic, as HAL has lost the case.


until they appeal :-)

(I have no idea if that is likely as the legal arguments on which they lost
are beyond me)

No, they have now exhausted the appeals procedures.

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 15:58:54 on Fri, 26 May 2017, Recliner
remarked:

Think Liverpool St to
Heathrow with its being express after Paddington.
....
How could it be express after Padd? The Crossrail tunnels connect to the
Relief, not the Main lines.

I already covered that aspect in my remarks about a flat junction at
Paddington.

Anyway, it's now academic, as HAL has lost the case.

Thanks for the info.
--
Roland Perry

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...

Anyway, it's now academic, as HAL has lost the case.


until they appeal :-)

(I have no idea if that is likely as the legal arguments on which they
lost
are beyond me)

No, they have now exhausted the appeals procedures.

have they?

this was a judgment by a single judge at the high court

is there really not a higher court they can apply to

On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:
https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport
have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the
airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per
hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning
passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and
Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless
device."

David Walters wrote:
On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:
https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport
have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the
airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per
hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning
passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and
Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless
device."

I'm glad sense has prevailed. It's also good that HAL is allowing Elizabeth
Line trains to serve T5 as well as T4.

With 6 tph rather than 4 tph, and the hope to increase it to 8 tph, that's
a big increase in Elizabeth line services to Heathrow, which will also
reduce the number of Paddington reversers. It should take some pressure off
the Piccadilly line, too.

It's not clear if the stations will be in zone 6 for Oyster, the same as
the Heathrow Tube stations. I certainly hope so, or it's going to be very
confusing. I guess a premium fare still have to be paid on HEx first class,
but it sounds like there won't be a premium for HEx standard class.

I wonder if this outbreak of reasonableness has anything to do with
approval for the third runway?

"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification
for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after
Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under
contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate
a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:
https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport
have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the
airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per
hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning
passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and
Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless
device."

So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then?

How will the Oyster machine know that the user is intending to travel on HEx
and not on Crossrail?

I suppose that it could be enforced at the other end, but then what will the
default fare be for people who don't tap out? And that will, of course,
delay passengers alighting from HEx at Padd as they queue to tap out. Which
will somewhat negate much of the convenience that the higher fare is paying
for.

There could be different machines for each train, but that will cause
confusions - I suspect most people would rather the convenience of Oyster
weren't available to HEx passengers if the result is that pax who travel on
Crossrail risk getting charged a premium fare for tapping on the wrong
machine.

I'm wondering if they really mean that oyster will be accepted for travel on
HEx.

tim

On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 17:02:09 +0100, tim... wrote:


"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification
for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after
Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under
contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate
a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

There is apparently an agreement:
https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/

"Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport
have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the
airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per
hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019."

Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express

"From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning
passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and
Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless
device."

So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then?

On train ticket inspection? I infrequently travel on HEx but last time
I did my ticket was checked.