https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

Called the Elizabeth line, London’s newest route was funded by taxpayers
and businesses in the capital and is due to carry 200m people a year. Four
Crossrail trains an hour will start running between Paddington and Heathrow
from next May — though not to Terminal 5 as the Heathrow Express has an
exclusive deal to run services there until 2023.

…

The company is believed to have identified a location near the airport
where trains could be redirected back towards Paddington or continue west —
though turning around trains on the Great Western line would create a huge
headache on the main artery between the capital and the west of England and
south Wales.

On 21/05/2017 09:58, Recliner wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

Called the Elizabeth line, London’s newest route was funded by taxpayers
and businesses in the capital and is due to carry 200m people a year. Four
Crossrail trains an hour will start running between Paddington and Heathrow
from next May — though not to Terminal 5 as the Heathrow Express has an
exclusive deal to run services there until 2023.


Easy answer, charge Heathrow £1k per train for the Heathrow Express to
use the new Paddington layout.

But why didn't someone in the DfT pick up on this before they started
building Crossrail?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message , at 10:10:48 on Sun, 21 May
2017, Graeme Wall remarked:
The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment
funds — want to recoup its past spending on the private train line
with an “investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train
that uses the track, plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Easy answer, charge Heathrow £1k per train for the Heathrow Express to
use the new Paddington layout.

They already have ongoing rights to use Paddington, the only leverage
will be retribution when that ends in 2023 (HEx reportedly want to be
able to run further into the core, then).

But why didn't someone in the DfT pick up on this before they started
building Crossrail?

This has been known about all along, but I suspect that the DfT thought
it could stare-down HEx when the time came.

What could possibly go wrong?
--
Roland Perry

If, hypothetically, the judge finds that Heathrow has the right to levy this charge, it would be possible to charge less per train by running more trains by adding more destinations. Heathrow Connect to Paddington is slated to be phased out in favor of Crossrail to Paddington. Heathrow Connect could be continued as a service to Stratford rather than Paddington; it would become the easiest way to get from Heathrow to a number of northern suburbs by mass transit. In addition, trains could be run from Heathrow to busy junctions - Reading and Clapham Junction come to mind.


On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 2:31:45 PM UTC+5:30, Recliner wrote:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...hrow-jwrcctt60

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.

A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after Heathrow
challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under contingency
plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a
few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto
other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to
central London, dodging the £700 fees.

Called the Elizabeth line, London’s newest route was funded by taxpayers
and businesses in the capital and is due to carry 200m people a year. Four
Crossrail trains an hour will start running between Paddington and Heathrow
from next May — though not to Terminal 5 as the Heathrow Express has an
exclusive deal to run services there until 2023.

…

The company is believed to have identified a location near the airport
where trains could be redirected back towards Paddington or continue west —
though turning around trains on the Great Western line would create a huge
headache on the main artery between the capital and the west of England and
south Wales.

In message , at
09:22:54 on Sun, 21 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
If, hypothetically, the judge finds that Heathrow has the right to levy
this charge, it would be possible to charge less per train by running
more trains by adding more destinations. Heathrow Connect to Paddington
is slated to be phased out in favor of Crossrail to Paddington.
Heathrow Connect could be continued as a service to Stratford rather
than Paddington; it would become the easiest way to get from Heathrow
to a number of northern suburbs by mass transit. In addition, trains
could be run from Heathrow to busy junctions - Reading

Once a new line is built beyond Heathrow.

and Clapham Junction come to mind.

Once an even less likely to ever happen new line, is built beyond
Heathrow.

On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 2:31:45 PM UTC+5:30, Recliner wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...-at-heathrow-j
wrcctt60

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment
funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses
the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.


--
Roland Perry

On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 11:07:19 PM UTC+5:30, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
09:22:54 on Sun, 21 May 2017, Ding Bat
remarked:
If, hypothetically, the judge finds that Heathrow has the right to levy
this charge, it would be possible to charge less per train by running
more trains by adding more destinations. Heathrow Connect to Paddington
is slated to be phased out in favor of Crossrail to Paddington.
Heathrow Connect could be continued as a service to Stratford rather
than Paddington; it would become the easiest way to get from Heathrow
to a number of northern suburbs by mass transit. In addition, trains
could be run from Heathrow to busy junctions - Reading

Once a new line is built beyond Heathrow.

What new line? The same line that takes Heathrow Express to Paddington can be
used to go to Reading. Trains would just have to turn west toward
Reading instead instead of east toward Paddington.

and Clapham Junction come to mind.

Once an even less likely to ever happen new line, is built beyond
Heathrow.

Why a new line? The line to Paddington crosses the London Overground line
that goes to Clapham Junction. If there's no switch to turn south toward
Clapham Junction, that can be added.

On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 2:31:45 PM UTC+5:30, Recliner wrote:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...-at-heathrow-j
wrcctt60

Extracts:

The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment
funds —
want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an
“investment recovery charge� of £570 for every train that uses
the track,
plus extra fees of about £107 per train.

Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for
such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The
Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail
£42m a year.


--
Roland Perry

Ding Bat wrote:
If, hypothetically, the judge finds that Heathrow has the right to levy
this charge, it would be possible to charge less per train by running
more trains by adding more destinations. Heathrow Connect to Paddington
is slated to be phased out in favor of Crossrail to Paddington.

No, the 9-car, 4 tph Crossrail trains will go from Heathrow T4 to Abbey
Wood. They will replace the 5-car, 2 tph Heathrow Connect service to
Paddington.

Heathrow Connect could be continued as a service to Stratford rather than
Paddington; it would become the easiest way to get from Heathrow to a
number of northern suburbs by mass transit. In addition, trains could be
run from Heathrow to busy junctions - Reading and Clapham Junction come to mind.

Using what route?

Roland Perry wrote:
In message
-sept
ember.org, at 22:35:02 on Sun, 21 May 2017, Recliner
remarked:

I think increased rail access will be a mandatory requirement for third
runway approval.

That's the only consideration which matters. In particular there are
stringent atmospheric pollution and traffic congestion issues which
requires them to shift people off the roads and onto trains. That's why
the *only* market that HEx is designed to compete with is a cab to
central London, not least because those passengers would never catch the
tube.

They wouldn't catch the Tube, but might well use the Elizabeth line, which
makes it much more of a HEx competitor. Like HEx, it will offer 4 tph, but
unlike HEx, it will go directly to useful places like the West End, City
and Canary Wharf.

So HAL is trying to do two things with this demand:

1. Raise Crossrail fares to Heathrow so they don't undercut HEx so much.
Otherwise HEx may suffer an early demse.

2. Make enough money from Crossrail to compensate for the lost HEx
revenues.


Similarly, Heathrow Connect is mainly aimed at airport workers, the vast
majority of whom nevertheless drive (often in shared cars).

The airport does its best to deter travellers from using HC, by putting up
no signs for it. Similarly, I don't think it's mentioned on Padd departure
boards (I think it's shown as a H&H service).

For example, this is the sign on the T4 Heathrow Connect station entrance:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/26830662545/in/album-72157667996346665/

It only mentions HEx, which doesn't even serve that station.

I wonder if HAL intends to ignore the Elizabeth line in the same way?
Perhaps it will change its policy if Crossrail trains have to pay a hefty
access charge?

On Mon, 22 May 2017 08:49:11 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
I wonder if HAL intends to ignore the Elizabeth line in the same way?
Perhaps it will change its policy if Crossrail trains have to pay a hefty
access charge?

Perhaps the government in the form of network rail or tfl should reciprocate
in kind and massively raise access charges for HEx on the NR network and if
they refuse to pay then physically disconnect the line to heathrow from the
GW line.

--
Spud

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 08:49:11 on Mon, 22 May 2017, Recliner
remarked:

I think increased rail access will be a mandatory requirement for third
runway approval.

That's the only consideration which matters. In particular there are
stringent atmospheric pollution and traffic congestion issues which
requires them to shift people off the roads and onto trains. That's why
the *only* market that HEx is designed to compete with is a cab to
central London, not least because those passengers would never catch the
tube.

They wouldn't catch the Tube, but might well use the Elizabeth line,

Not when they built HEx in the 90's they wouldn't.


which makes it much more of a HEx competitor. Like HEx, it will offer 4
tph, but unlike HEx, it will go directly to useful places like the West
End, City and Canary Wharf.

But much slower, I expect. And will Elizabeth Line have First Class?

So HAL is trying to do two things with this demand:

1. Raise Crossrail fares to Heathrow so they don't undercut HEx so much.
Otherwise HEx may suffer an early demse.

2. Make enough money from Crossrail to compensate for the lost HEx
revenues.

In other words "just like when Heathrow Connect started".

Similarly, Heathrow Connect is mainly aimed at airport workers, the vast
majority of whom nevertheless drive (often in shared cars).

The airport does its best to deter travellers from using HC, by putting up
no signs for it. Similarly, I don't think it's mentioned on Padd departure
boards (I think it's shown as a H&H service).

That's because it's aimed at airport workers, who know all about it, and
even get reduced fares.

For example, this is the sign on the T4 Heathrow Connect station entrance:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/reclin...um-72157667996
346665/

It only mentions HEx, which doesn't even serve that station.

I wonder if HAL intends to ignore the Elizabeth line in the same way?
Perhaps it will change its policy if Crossrail trains have to pay a hefty
access charge?

But Heathrow Connect already does. The interesting sociological
experiment will be whether HAL treat the Elizabeth Line like the tube,
or like HC.
--
Roland Perry