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| London Transport (uk.transport.london) Discussion of all forms of transport in London. |
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#31
August 28th 17, 09:46 PM
posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london,misc.transport.urban-transit
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London Oyster and Contactless on NR
Roland Perry wrote:
In message -sept ember.org, at 11:15:22 on Mon, 28 Aug 2017, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:41:20 on Mon, 28 Aug 2017, e27002 aurora remarked: and anyway on card storage technology is obsolescent now. So, what's next? They are attempting to externalise the cost to the customer, so that the pays for the storage medium (a smartphone) and its connectivity. What's interesting from a technology-watcher's point of view is that the railways don't have the slightest idea how this is all going to end up, let alone how to get from here to there. Since ITSO from 2009 we've had numerous pilots: barcodes on phones using MMS or other generic technology, barcodes on phones delivered by a special app, combined credit card and Oyster (to combat 'card bloat'), trying to second guess the ticketing cost by examining your location trails, NFC on phones [basically turning the phone's back cover into a smartcard], and even embedding a traditional smartcard in the phone. The only one that's showing staying power is Contactless Credit Cards. Hmm, I wonder if that's planned to work with any third party pay-by-phone contactless technologies [from Apple Pay via Google pay to quirky ones like PayQwiq - pass the siqwbag], other than *just* Visa/Mastercard? https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payment...ethods-of-cont actless-payment/apple-pay They must have slipped that in without me noticing. Where on the gate is the Apple-pay logo? Not needed if a reader does contactless it does Apple or Android pay https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payment...ethods-of-cont actless-payment/android-pay https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payment...ethods-of-cont actless-payment/barclaycard-and-barclays-contactless-mobile -- Mark |
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#33
August 29th 17, 09:11 PM
posted to uk.transport.london
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Oyster and Contactless on NR
In article ,
(David Walters) wrote: On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 20:27:25 +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote: On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 16:42:42 +0100, David Walters wrote: On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500, wrote: I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is. But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless travel. Perhaps because there is no way for an on-board ticket inspection to confirm the person using the contactless card is the owner, and in possession, of the relevant railcard? In theory a ticket check of an Oyster card can flag the railcard which the ticket inspector would then ask to see. I don't see the problem. The railcard must still be brought along for the journey. How would the ticket inspector know to ask to see a railcard if a contactless card was used? From the back office database. Don't they already access that when checking contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago. If an Oyster card has a railcard discount set then there is a flag on the card which I assume is visible on the inspectors handheld reader. TfL can't set a flag on contactless cards. True but that's old technology. It's moving to the back office. Get with it. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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#34
August 30th 17, 10:10 AM
posted to uk.transport.london
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Oyster and Contactless on NR
On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 15:11:29 -0500, wrote:
In article , (David Walters) wrote: On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 20:27:25 +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote: On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 16:42:42 +0100, David Walters wrote: On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500, wrote: I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is. But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless travel. Perhaps because there is no way for an on-board ticket inspection to confirm the person using the contactless card is the owner, and in possession, of the relevant railcard? In theory a ticket check of an Oyster card can flag the railcard which the ticket inspector would then ask to see. I don't see the problem. The railcard must still be brought along for the journey. How would the ticket inspector know to ask to see a railcard if a contactless card was used? From the back office database. Don't they already access that when checking contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago. Not in real time as far as I can tell, no. Contactless ticket checks show on the journey history but take some hours to appear, it seems to be updated after the event. Gate entry/exits take a few seconds to appear. There are also lots of places without data where tickets are checked such as tunnels so you can't ask the back office. |
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#35
August 30th 17, 11:52 AM
posted to uk.transport.london
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Oyster and Contactless on NR
On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 10:10:52 +0100
David Walters wrote: On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 15:11:29 -0500, wrote: From the back office database. Don't they already access that when checking contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago. Not in real time as far as I can tell, no. Contactless ticket checks show on the journey history but take some hours to appear, it seems to be updated after the event. Gate entry/exits take a few seconds to appear. I wonder what if anything stops people using duff contactless cards, eg ones for a closed account or one that was thought lost , cancelled , then foundi again? Presumably the only check the gate can do is whether the card is from a valid bank and account type. -- Spud |
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#36
August 30th 17, 12:03 PM
posted to uk.transport.london
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Oyster and Contactless on NR
On 30/08/2017 11:52, d wrote:
On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 10:10:52 +0100 David Walters wrote: On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 15:11:29 -0500, wrote: From the back office database. Don't they already access that when checking contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago. Not in real time as far as I can tell, no. Contactless ticket checks show on the journey history but take some hours to appear, it seems to be updated after the event. Gate entry/exits take a few seconds to appear. I wonder what if anything stops people using duff contactless cards, eg ones for a closed account or one that was thought lost , cancelled , then foundi again? Presumably the only check the gate can do is whether the card is from a valid bank and account type. Given the frequency that people get cards cancelled these days due to unauthorised payments etc I assume they must have a refuse list that gets regularly distributed and updated to the gates - if not it's a massive revenue hole. I can imagine though that each card would work once, but for e.g. tube journeys by the time you touch out again it may well have been flagged and fail. Given the price of memory these days, you could easily store a card for each person in the UK in 0.5GB and CPU processing etc is such that it could be rapidly searched if organised correctly. Ok - transmitting it entirely would be tiresome, but presumably you'd only distributed e.g. minutely updates each of which would only be a handful of cards. |
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#37
August 30th 17, 12:18 PM
posted to uk.transport.london
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Oyster and Contactless on NR
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#38
August 30th 17, 02:31 PM
posted to uk.transport.london
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Oyster and Contactless on NR
On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 12:18:59 +0100
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:52:40 on Wed, 30 Aug 2017, d remarked: From the back office database. Don't they already access that when checking contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago. Not in real time as far as I can tell, no. Contactless ticket checks show on the journey history but take some hours to appear, it seems to be updated after the event. Gate entry/exits take a few seconds to appear. I wonder what if anything stops people using duff contactless cards, eg ones for a closed account or one that was thought lost , cancelled , then foundi again? Presumably the only check the gate can do is whether the card is from a valid bank and account type. The first time it's used, probably nothing to stop it. Once the charge "bounces", overnight, it'll probably be added to a local-to-TfL block-list. I suppose for TfL the most they can lose is the daily capped fare, but if contactless starts to be accepted on national rail for longer journeys someone could in theory fleece a TOC of a few hundred quid. -- Spud |
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#39
August 30th 17, 02:38 PM
posted to uk.transport.london
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Oyster and Contactless on NR
wrote:
On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 12:18:59 +0100 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:52:40 on Wed, 30 Aug 2017, d remarked: From the back office database. Don't they already access that when checking contactless these days? Recent Oyster & Contactless developments rely on a degree of connectivity that was but a dream less than a decade ago. Not in real time as far as I can tell, no. Contactless ticket checks show on the journey history but take some hours to appear, it seems to be updated after the event. Gate entry/exits take a few seconds to appear. I wonder what if anything stops people using duff contactless cards, eg ones for a closed account or one that was thought lost , cancelled , then foundi again? Presumably the only check the gate can do is whether the card is from a valid bank and account type. The first time it's used, probably nothing to stop it. Once the charge "bounces", overnight, it'll probably be added to a local-to-TfL block-list. I suppose for TfL the most they can lose is the daily capped fare, but if contactless starts to be accepted on national rail for longer journeys someone could in theory fleece a TOC of a few hundred quid. I wonder if there isn't a list, updated at least daily, of all withdrawn credit card numbers (that were still in their period of validity)? That would be small enough to be downloaded to portable devices for offline use. |
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#40
August 30th 17, 04:00 PM
posted to uk.transport.london
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Oyster and Contactless on NR
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