On 2 Apr 2004 21:19:25 -0800, (Gareth Davis)
wrote:

Since we are on the topic of comparing things stateside, I thought I'd
share my recent experiences of the NYC subway system during a recent
stay.

[snip]
Overall I think that if I was offered reduced / flat fares NYC style
but in return for their shoddy, dirty, smelly stations, lack of staff,
lack of information and uncomfortable trains then I would turn it
down. After all, given the current exchange rate, I'm not paying more
then $4 a day for my Z1+2 annual. So everyone at LU reading this, give
yourselves a big pat on the back. I have experienced a comparable
system and the Underground is equal or far better in all aspects
except for cost. But then I guess you get what you pay for.

Of course I'm sure other people's experiences will be different.

well sort of. It's been a few years since I've been to NYC and I haven't
seen the newest trains. The main comment I would make is that the New
York subway had got to the point of almost total collapse 20 years ago.
In response to that their strategy was rightly to spend a lot of money
making the railway safe and fixing the decaying track, structures and
trains. It takes a hell of a long time to mend that sort of decay and
the stations were put at the back of the queue for attention. The order
of priorities can be argued about forever but I think the restoration of
a safe and reliable service was the right decision. I think it will take
about another 20 years to put right the overall ambience issues in their
stations and some aspects like the girder construction will probably
always be an issue in terms of security etc.

I can't ever see a time when New York does anything about the entrance
layout issues - it is virtually impossible to permanently close an
entrance on the New York subway. As a result there is little incentive
to provide lower level connections because there is no saving to be had
e.g. closing a ticket booth and saving the staff cost.

Some of the other observations are responses to societal problems -
upholstered seats would never work in NYC given the prevalence of
vandalism and graffiti. I agree that metal or plastic seats are not
comfy but it would be far too expensive to provide them.

I've not read anything about the information issues that you identify
but I do know that big investment in signalling and control systems has
been approved so it is likely that platform "next train" indicators will
follow in time.

I prefer to think that big metro systems can all teach other something.
There is plenty that is good about LUL or the NY Subway or Paris Metro.
None are better than the others in *all* aspects in my opinion. And it
isn't just what you pay for - it is also about how much society as a
whole pays and values its public transport systems.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield writes:
Some of the other observations are responses to societal problems -
upholstered seats would never work in NYC given the prevalence of
vandalism and graffiti. I agree that metal or plastic seats are not
comfy but it would be far too expensive to provide them.

Actually, I wonder if that's still true now. The totally graffiti-
covered trains that you used to see 25 years ago are a thing of the
past, thanks to vigilant enforcement and improved security at the
yards (depots). Maybe the environment has also improved to where
proper seats could be reintroduced.

And New York does beat London on two other issues of onboard comfort:
all trains are air-conditioned, and with no "tube profile" trains, the
whole floor area is available for standing if needed.

On the whole I find the London system a much more pleasant environment,
but slower-moving and, of course, more expensive for most trips.
--
Mark Brader "Inventions reached their limit long ago,
Toronto and I see no hope for further development."
-- Julius Frontinus, 1st century A.D.

My text in this article is in the public domain.

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 15:21:12 -0000, (Mark Brader) wrote:

Paul Corfield writes:
Some of the other observations are responses to societal problems -
upholstered seats would never work in NYC given the prevalence of
vandalism and graffiti. I agree that metal or plastic seats are not
comfy but it would be far too expensive to provide them.

Actually, I wonder if that's still true now. The totally graffiti-
covered trains that you used to see 25 years ago are a thing of the
past, thanks to vigilant enforcement and improved security at the
yards (depots). Maybe the environment has also improved to where
proper seats could be reintroduced.

I know the paint graffiti has been dealt with but the scratch or dutch
graffiti was awful the last time I visited and the OP's post seems to
indicate no change. The only problem is that London is following New
York's downward spiral on the graffiti issue.

I think the maintenance issue would be the killer - metal and plastic
seats are very easy to clean and you do not have problems with seat
padding or ripped upholstery. There is also no risk of litter and drug
paraphernalia being stuffed into or between seats with metal or plastic
seats - unlike with seat cushions. I must prefer the Tube's seats and am
not looking forward to losing the relative comfort of the Victoria Line
seats when we get the new trains which I suspect will be narrow, firm
and uncomfortable.

And New York does beat London on two other issues of onboard comfort:
all trains are air-conditioned, and with no "tube profile" trains, the
whole floor area is available for standing if needed.

Can't argue with those points.

On the whole I find the London system a much more pleasant environment,
but slower-moving and, of course, more expensive for most trips.

On the slow moving aspect I'd counter that it depends what sort of trip
you are making. LUL seems to offer a much more frequent service than the
Subway. I can recall waiting for quite long periods to get specific
trains on shared routes in New York even in the rush hour. I'll agree
that once an express turns up it is quick but the lack of frequency
counts against speed in terms of assessing total journey time. My
argument may fall down on a line like the 7 in New York which is self
contained and therefore you only have a choice between an all stops and
an Express.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

All stations I saw appeared litter free with no signs of vandalism,
however it is probably fair to say every single one looked very dirty
and smelt like a public toilet! Most of the stations I used did show
signs of renovation work in progress although in a couple of cases
this meant that platforms and passageways were open with surfaces
potholed while they were in the process of relaying them. Also there
were no staff to be seen inside the ticket barriers on most stations.

They seem to be people who sit all day in a glass box, who you can't
understand what is being said.

One thing that caused me a great deal of confusion is that the
stations often have seperate external entrances for each direction of
travel, and no internal bridge/underpass if you enter via the wrong
one. Sometimes these external entrances were a block apart with no
signposting between them. I guess this is something you get used to,
but as a first time visitor to a station it is baffling.

The map is huge and confusing. The only thing I remember was the Q diamond,
and never understood what it did, compared to the Normal Q line.

About the same as the UK, less evidence of tagging on the trains
compared to the UK however they had a far worse etching problem,
probably down to some lines having everthing internal covered in
stainless steel plating. The newer trains had dot-matrix screens and
clear recorded announcements, just like the Jubilee and Northern
lines. One line also had lights behind each station on the route maps
above the windows which indicated the trains current position on the
line. One thing missing on all lines was seat cushions, the moulded
plastic seats quickly become uncomfortable. On most trains you could
look out the front window (drivers cab is on one side) which was kind
of cool to stand by for a near drivers eye view.

When I was there I was on a train that was announcing every station wrong
because it was an express train, used on a local service.

No tube maps posted on platforms (usually the only one is outside the
gateline), no destination/time indicators on platforms, most
announcements muffled and distorted (yes, much worse than London).
Signs were of variable quality. Given that multiple destinations
depart from the same platforms, and there are express/stopping
varients of services this lack of info didn't help.

The one thing that annoyed me. You swipe the tickets in a turnstile like
they do with Credit cards in a shop, but my card refused to swipe and I
spoke to the unhelpful man in the glass box and he muffled something to me
in another language, and he opened the side gate, which I went through, and
held open for about 3 others. Their revenue protection is awful. Anyway, I
missed a train and sat on a horrible platform with 10 buskers and watched
the dogs/rats run along the track and loud trains whizz through the middle.
Think of the Central line at bank and times the noise level by 5.
--
To reply direct, remove NOSPAM and replace with railwaysonline
For Railway Information, News & Photos check out the Award Winning Railways
Online at http://www.railwaysonline.co.uk
"Loving First Great Western Link since 2004"

On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 at 12:47:55, Joe wrote:

The map is huge and confusing. The only thing I remember was the Q diamond,
and never understood what it did, compared to the Normal Q line.

Q Diamond was the express, normal Q the local (we took the Q Diamond to
get to and from where we were staying with a friend in Brooklyn).

One thing I didn't say in my previous post was how marvellous the
commuter trains seemed to be compared to SouthCentral and Thameslink! We
took the commuter train to Trenton, New Jersey, and changed there to
another commuter train to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and it was
wonderful. Really comfortable, for local trains, with staff on the
trains to check your ticket and reduce vandalism, clean lavatories that
worked...... enough said! Left SC and TL absolutely standing!
--
Annabel Smyth
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 8 March 2004

"Annabel Smyth" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 at 12:47:55, Joe wrote:

The map is huge and confusing. The only thing I remember was the Q
diamond,
and never understood what it did, compared to the Normal Q line.

Q Diamond was the express, normal Q the local (we took the Q Diamond to
get to and from where we were staying with a friend in Brooklyn).

But nowhere does it obviously tell you that the diamonds are express and the
circles are local; if you look very closely in the corner of the map, in
very small print, you may notice that the word 'express' tends to be seen
near diamonds, but it's far from obvious. The squares seem to be
terminating points, but I'm not certain about that. The previous poster
said "The map is huge and confusing", I would say that is an understatement.

There are maps on at least some platforms, but they tend to be positioned
behind seats, so when someone is sitting there you can't see them! This
also seems to be the case with the maps inside cars. These maps seem to be
the same size as the ones you can get in folded form brom the booth at
stations, about 50x80cm. This map really could do with receiving the
attention of Mr. H. Beck. This map shows land masses and areas of water,
there's a lot of water around New York, and other features, such as parks
and some streets. It's not a diagram like the London one, but it's not a
true scale map either. If you don't have some idea of where the station
you're trying to reach is, geographically, there's no easy way to find it on
the map. To be fair, the Subway is a much larger system than the
Underground, and producing a really clear map would not be easy, but I'm
sure they could do better than the present one.

The signs on the side of the cars are difficult to see as the train pulls
into a crowded platform, there are no London type 'Next train' indicators on
the platforms, some stations have attractive tile mosaic name signs
displated high on the walls, otheres have only small square ones attached to
the columns, facing along the platforms, and difficult to see from a train.
Some stations have more than one name, if youare on the N, R ow W line, and
want the Staten Island ferry terminal, you need to get off at Whitehall
Street. This is shown on the map as being by the ferry terminal, but the 1
and 9 lines terminate at South Ferry station, which appears to be some
distance away. In fact, as you leave Whitehall Street station the New
entrance to South Ferry station is only about ten seconds walk away, and the
old entrance, closed since 9-11, little further. To confuse things further,
some of the previously mentioned signs on the columns at Whitehall Street
actually say South Ferry. The 4 and 5 lines serve nearby Bowling Green
station, all three stations being closer than exits from some single London
stations.

The map seems to represent tracks, or at least routes, rather than services,
the 1 and 9 lines are represented by a single red line, the N,R and W by a
single yellow one as are the Q, Q diamond and another branch of the W which
branch off at Canal Street, and turn East to cross the Manhattan Bridge,
this re-joins the other yellow line at DeKalb Av., something like the Bank
and Charing Cross branches of the Northern line, but the whole thing just
looks a mess on the map. Somebody has drawn a London style map of the
Subway, and put in on their web-site; I can't remember the address, but
Google will find it. The creator recognises some problems, mainly caused by
the number of stations. New Yorkers seem to prefer their style of map for
some reason.

I see nothing wrong with the plastic seats; ok, they're not as comfortable
as the London ones, but it's not as if people normally spend hours on end
sitting on Subway trains, and at least they're easy to keep clean.

In terms of passenger information, including the map, and siignage, London
is far better, but in most other ways I think New York is better. The
stations I have seen, admittedly quite a small number were clean, at least
parts likely to come into passengers were, both stations and trains were
more larger than typical London ones. Most ticket machines seem to work,
and unless you are making a short journey, the $2 flat fare is good value,
there was a major outcry last year when it was increased from $1.50.

Metrocards are available in unlimited ride, like Travelcard, and stored
value pre paid types. Free transfers are available to buses, and between
certain nearby stations, though strangely, not in the case of Whitehall
Street/South Ferry. For a single $2 fare it is possible to travel from the
Noth of the Bronx to the Southern tip of Manhattan. The Staten Island Ferry
is free, but even better, on reaching the Island, you swipe your Metrocard
through the gate at the Staten Island Railway terminal. and it gives you a
free transfer to that line, and the whole length of the Island.

It's a pity that the Metrocards are not valid on the other rail systems in
the area. The Subway is operated by the MTA, I think the suburban rail
lines in New York are too, but cross the Hudson, and you're in New Jersey.
Linking the two are the old Hudson Tubes, now known as PATH, operated by the
Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, this links the World Trade Centre
and 33rd Street in New York with Newark and Hoboken in New Jersey. This
charges $1.50, but you can buy a card with 11 rides for the price of 10.
You cannot however use Metrocards, though there has been talk of it for the
future. It shouldn't be difficult, fit Metrocard readers to the gates,
record the number of triips made with them, and allocate the apppropriate
revenue to the Port Authority.

Once in New Jersey the suburban rail lines are operated by NJ Transit, as
are two light rail lines, the newly-built Hudson-Bergen, and the Newark city
Subway, which has recently received new vehicles, and been extended. All of
these systems have their own tickets. It's rather like needing one
Travelcard type ticket South of the Thames, another one on the Waterloo and
City, and different tickets on each underground line in the North.

The Hudson-Bergen line is impressive, the stops, stations or whatever
they're called, are better those on British tram/light rail systems, and
there seems to be almost no vandalism.

I seem to have said a lot about what's bad with these systems, but there's a
great deal which is good, A lot of money is clearly being spent on the
railways over there, to the fury of many of the local people, but they do
seem to be getting something to show for the investment. With certain
notable exemptions, we seem to be pouring large amounts of money in, but
getting little improvement out.

One thing I didn't say in my previous post was how marvellous the
commuter trains seemed to be compared to SouthCentral and Thameslink! We
took the commuter train to Trenton, New Jersey, and changed there to
another commuter train to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and it was
wonderful. Really comfortable, for local trains, with staff on the
trains to check your ticket and reduce vandalism, clean lavatories that
worked...... enough said! Left SC and TL absolutely standing!

I've only been one stop, from the new station serving Newark International
Airport Station to Newark Penn to change to PATH. I will be over there in
three weeks, probably for the last time, and will be going to Trenton to see
the new New Diesel powered light rail line, the 'River Line', which NJ
Transit opened from there to Camden three weeks ago

On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 at 22:44:52, Stephen Furley
wrote:

But nowhere does it obviously tell you that the diamonds are express and the
circles are local; if you look very closely in the corner of the map, in
very small print, you may notice that the word 'express' tends to be seen
near diamonds, but it's far from obvious. The squares seem to be
terminating points, but I'm not certain about that. The previous poster
said "The map is huge and confusing", I would say that is an understatement.

What's more, it tends to be inaccurate; when we were there, there were
engineering works on one of the tracks over Manhattan Bridge, which
meant that the line didn't go where it said it did.

According to some sources, they can't do the "next train" indicators
that we have, as it's "too complex", which I think is b*ll*cks, but
there you are.....

But at least once you know where you are going, and which train to take,
you get a 24-hour service, on admittedly less comfortable, but also less
crowded trains.
--
Annabel Smyth
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 8 March 2004

"Annabel Smyth" wrote in message
...

According to some sources, they can't do the "next train"
indicators that we have, as it's "too complex", which I think
is b*ll*cks, but there you are.....

Well, LUL can't do the next train indicators either, at least they can't do
them properly!

But at least once you know where you are going, and
which train to take, you get a 24-hour service, on
admittedly less comfortable, but also less crowded trains.

You can't really complain about them being less comfortable and then praise
them for being less crowded, because the two go together. As soon as a
transport system starts using plastic seats, it is seen as a distress
purchase and is shunned by anyone who thinks they are above the hoi poloi,
solving any overcrowding problem within weeks.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

But nowhere does it obviously tell you that the diamonds are express and
the
circles are local; if you look very closely in the corner of the map, in
very small print, you may notice that the word 'express' tends to be seen
near diamonds, but it's far from obvious. The squares seem to be
terminating points, but I'm not certain about that. The previous poster
said "The map is huge and confusing", I would say that is an
understatement.

And I thought the tourists in London were bad with their maps. If I lived
there I'd probably end up punching someone who opened out a huge map in a
busy subway
--
To reply direct, remove NOSPAM and replace with railwaysonline
For Railway Information, News & Photos check out the Award Winning Railways
Online at http://www.railwaysonline.co.uk
"Loving First Great Western Link since 2004"

This map really could do with receiving the
attention of Mr. H. Beck. .

Have a go your self....could be fun...