Since we are on the topic of comparing things stateside, I thought I'd
share my recent experiences of the NYC subway system during a recent
stay.

Stations:
All stations I saw appeared litter free with no signs of vandalism,
however it is probably fair to say every single one looked very dirty
and smelt like a public toilet! Most of the stations I used did show
signs of renovation work in progress although in a couple of cases
this meant that platforms and passageways were open with surfaces
potholed while they were in the process of relaying them. Also there
were no staff to be seen inside the ticket barriers on most stations.

I was very impressed by the extending platform edges on the curved
platforms at South Ferry, but was not impressed by the fact that the
rear 5 coaches (of 10) do not fit into the station and there is no
passenger connection between units 5 and 6. Anyone who could not read
the English posters might have difficulty there as the muffled
announcement did not help, and the staff made no effort to detrain
people in the wrong carrages at the previous station. I realised in
time, but there were still people in my carrage as I left and legged
it along the platform. The station is on a loop so anyone in the wrong
carrages will just get returned to the previous station.

One thing that caused me a great deal of confusion is that the
stations often have seperate external entrances for each direction of
travel, and no internal bridge/underpass if you enter via the wrong
one. Sometimes these external entrances were a block apart with no
signposting between them. I guess this is something you get used to,
but as a first time visitor to a station it is baffling.

Trains:
About the same as the UK, less evidence of tagging on the trains
compared to the UK however they had a far worse etching problem,
probably down to some lines having everthing internal covered in
stainless steel plating. The newer trains had dot-matrix screens and
clear recorded announcements, just like the Jubilee and Northern
lines. One line also had lights behind each station on the route maps
above the windows which indicated the trains current position on the
line. One thing missing on all lines was seat cushions, the moulded
plastic seats quickly become uncomfortable. On most trains you could
look out the front window (drivers cab is on one side) which was kind
of cool to stand by for a near drivers eye view.

Fair structu
Much easier to understand than London, no zones, no local
cross-boundary fares just a single $2 flat fare per journey (including
a bus transfer as part of the same subway journey). Travelcard style
unlimited use tickets were also available but I used the pre-pay
MetroCard which I could buy or refill at each station. Also if you put
$10 on your MetroCard it gave you another $2 journey for free.

Passenger information:
No tube maps posted on platforms (usually the only one is outside the
gateline), no destination/time indicators on platforms, most
announcements muffled and distorted (yes, much worse than London).
Signs were of variable quality. Given that multiple destinations
depart from the same platforms, and there are express/stopping
varients of services this lack of info didn't help. The line
number/letter is displayed on the front of each train and once on the
side of each car with the terminus points to make up for this though.
The dot matrix signs inside the newer stock were also a great help in
understanding where the train was going.

Reliability:
Did not experience any major service disruption - just as I rarely do
on my daily DLR journey.

Overall I think that if I was offered reduced / flat fares NYC style
but in return for their shoddy, dirty, smelly stations, lack of staff,
lack of information and uncomfortable trains then I would turn it
down. After all, given the current exchange rate, I'm not paying more
then $4 a day for my Z1+2 annual. So everyone at LU reading this, give
yourselves a big pat on the back. I have experienced a comparable
system and the Underground is equal or far better in all aspects
except for cost. But then I guess you get what you pay for.

Of course I'm sure other people's experiences will be different.

--
Gareth Davis

"Gareth Davis" wrote in message
om...
Since we are on the topic of comparing things stateside, I thought I'd
share my recent experiences of the NYC subway system during a recent
stay.

Stations:
All stations I saw appeared litter free with no signs of vandalism,
however it is probably fair to say every single one looked very dirty
and smelt like a public toilet! Most of the stations I used did show
signs of renovation work in progress although in a couple of cases
this meant that platforms and passageways were open with surfaces
potholed while they were in the process of relaying them. Also there
were no staff to be seen inside the ticket barriers on most stations.

I was very impressed by the extending platform edges on the curved
platforms at South Ferry, but was not impressed by the fact that the
rear 5 coaches (of 10) do not fit into the station and there is no
passenger connection between units 5 and 6. Anyone who could not read
the English posters might have difficulty there as the muffled
announcement did not help, and the staff made no effort to detrain
people in the wrong carrages at the previous station. I realised in
time, but there were still people in my carrage as I left and legged
it along the platform. The station is on a loop so anyone in the wrong
carrages will just get returned to the previous station.

One thing that caused me a great deal of confusion is that the
stations often have seperate external entrances for each direction of
travel, and no internal bridge/underpass if you enter via the wrong
one. Sometimes these external entrances were a block apart with no
signposting between them. I guess this is something you get used to,
but as a first time visitor to a station it is baffling.




Fair structu
Much easier to understand than London, no zones, no local
cross-boundary fares just a single $2 flat fare per journey (including
a bus transfer as part of the same subway journey). Travelcard style
unlimited use tickets were also available but I used the pre-pay
MetroCard which I could buy or refill at each station. Also if you put
$10 on your MetroCard it gave you another $2 journey for free.

Passenger information:
No tube maps posted on platforms (usually the only one is outside the
gateline), no destination/time indicators on platforms, most
announcements muffled and distorted (yes, much worse than London).
Signs were of variable quality. Given that multiple destinations
depart from the same platforms, and there are express/stopping
varients of services this lack of info didn't help. The line
number/letter is displayed on the front of each train and once on the
side of each car with the terminus points to make up for this though.
The dot matrix signs inside the newer stock were also a great help in
understanding where the train was going.


Overall I think that if I was offered reduced / flat fares NYC style
but in return for their shoddy, dirty, smelly stations, lack of staff,
lack of information and uncomfortable trains then I would turn it
down. After all, given the current exchange rate, I'm not paying more
then $4 a day for my Z1+2 annual. So everyone at LU reading this, give
yourselves a big pat on the back. I have experienced a comparable
system and the Underground is equal or far better in all aspects
except for cost. But then I guess you get what you pay for.

Of course I'm sure other people's experiences will be different.

--
Gareth Davis



Broadly I found the same things. One thing that seemed weird for me was to
get used to not having to put your ticket in the barrier to get out of the
station.

I'd say there are fewer stations and far fewer interchanges than in London,
but I love the idea of having express trains on the network.

I thought passenger information was very, very lacking. One thing that I
didn't think was particularly helpful was their using the term "uptown" and
"downtown" at the same time as having "up" stairs and "down" stairs.
Talking of stairs, haven't they heard of escalators? Money wise, overall, I
think it's got to be less expensive than London. $7 a day buys you an
unlimited travel card for subway/buses beats the £8+ for a Peak LT card.

On 2 Apr 2004 21:19:25 -0800, (Gareth Davis) wrote:

Since we are on the topic of comparing things stateside, I thought I'd
share my recent experiences of the NYC subway system during a recent
stay.

Stations:
All stations I saw appeared litter free with no signs of vandalism,
however it is probably fair to say every single one looked very dirty
and smelt like a public toilet! Most of the stations I used did show
signs of renovation work in progress although in a couple of cases
this meant that platforms and passageways were open with surfaces
potholed while they were in the process of relaying them. Also there
were no staff to be seen inside the ticket barriers on most stations.

Compared with the graffiti-ridden stations and cars of the 1970's, today's NYC
subways are clean as a hound's tooth.

Some larger stations have agents on the platforms to assist with questions and
moving passengers around, but most stations have no one outside the agent's
booth.

I was very impressed by the extending platform edges on the curved
platforms at South Ferry, but was not impressed by the fact that the
rear 5 coaches (of 10) do not fit into the station and there is no
passenger connection between units 5 and 6. Anyone who could not read
the English posters might have difficulty there as the muffled
announcement did not help, and the staff made no effort to detrain
people in the wrong carrages at the previous station. I realised in
time, but there were still people in my carrage as I left and legged
it along the platform. The station is on a loop so anyone in the wrong
carrages will just get returned to the previous station.

This is a very old problem and one that has been exacerbated by the newer
subway cars that do not allow free passage between the rear cars and the
forward ones because the conductor's cab in the middle blocks passage.

The last time I was in New York (in October 2003) I was in car 5 and the
conductor made lots of very clear announcements in the previous station. Then
as the train neared South Ferry, he made another announcement and opened the
door between his cab and the 5th and 6th cars so that those who were in the
rear part of the train could get into the front to exit.

The moving platforms are also seen on the Lexington local at 14th St/Union
Square. The station itself has been tarted up a bit since my time in New York
(1970-1991).

One thing that caused me a great deal of confusion is that the
stations often have seperate external entrances for each direction of
travel, and no internal bridge/underpass if you enter via the wrong
one. Sometimes these external entrances were a block apart with no
signposting between them. I guess this is something you get used to,
but as a first time visitor to a station it is baffling.

You have to learn to look at the sign above the entrance before entering the
station. The sign will say (for example) "23rd Street/1 9/Uptown". The sign is
directly above the entrance on or under the fence that surrounds the stairway.
If the entrance serves both ways, the sign will indicate that. This URL has a
picture of the uptown entrance at 66th St.

Trains:
About the same as the UK, less evidence of tagging on the trains
compared to the UK however they had a far worse etching problem,
probably down to some lines having everthing internal covered in
stainless steel plating. The newer trains had dot-matrix screens and
clear recorded announcements, just like the Jubilee and Northern
lines. One line also had lights behind each station on the route maps
above the windows which indicated the trains current position on the
line. One thing missing on all lines was seat cushions, the moulded
plastic seats quickly become uncomfortable. On most trains you could
look out the front window (drivers cab is on one side) which was kind
of cool to stand by for a near drivers eye view.

The last seat cushions on the New York subway were rattan seat cushions on BMT
trains that last saw service in the early 70's. These also had open fans (with
a sketchy wire guard cover) and always smelled of electrical fires.

Fair structu
Much easier to understand than London, no zones, no local
cross-boundary fares just a single $2 flat fare per journey (including
a bus transfer as part of the same subway journey). Travelcard style
unlimited use tickets were also available but I used the pre-pay
MetroCard which I could buy or refill at each station. Also if you put
$10 on your MetroCard it gave you another $2 journey for free.

I find this the most appealing part of the subway. At one time if you wished
to go to the Rockaways you had to pay a double fare (ie, you needed a token to
get out of the station, and two tokens to get in). This was abolished many
years ago.

Passenger information:
No tube maps posted on platforms (usually the only one is outside the
gateline), no destination/time indicators on platforms, most
announcements muffled and distorted (yes, much worse than London).
Signs were of variable quality. Given that multiple destinations
depart from the same platforms, and there are express/stopping
varients of services this lack of info didn't help. The line
number/letter is displayed on the front of each train and once on the
side of each car with the terminus points to make up for this though.
The dot matrix signs inside the newer stock were also a great help in
understanding where the train was going.

This is sometimes very vexing to tourists who find themselves in Queens when
they really wanted to go to 59th Street. Eternal vigilance is the price of
getting to your proper destination in New York City. The signs above the
platform edge (parallel to the train) give all the possible train identifiers
and their destinations for the trains which normally use that platform. You
must study these during your wait to ensure that when a train arrives you get
on the correct one.

The advantage to having multiple train types on the same track is that, when
there is a blockage somewhere, trains can be rerouted easily. It also assists
in maintenance, as the express/local systems mean that when the express track
is closed for maintenance work, the express train can run on the local track
and get to the same stations relatively easily.

Reliability:
Did not experience any major service disruption - just as I rarely do
on my daily DLR journey.

Overall I think that if I was offered reduced / flat fares NYC style
but in return for their shoddy, dirty, smelly stations, lack of staff,
lack of information and uncomfortable trains then I would turn it
down. After all, given the current exchange rate, I'm not paying more
then $4 a day for my Z1+2 annual. So everyone at LU reading this, give
yourselves a big pat on the back. I have experienced a comparable
system and the Underground is equal or far better in all aspects
except for cost. But then I guess you get what you pay for.

Of course I'm sure other people's experiences will be different.

Well, if you happen to live and work in New York City the London Underground
will be of little use to your daily commute. I think that NYCTA is parsecs
better than it was in the 1970's and 80's, and is well worth the fare. Yes,
there could be improvements. Of what subway/underground system worldwide could
this not be said?
--
Chris Hansen | chrishansenhome at btinternet dot com
"The problem with the French is that they have no word
for 'entrepreneur'." President Bush to Prime Minister
Blair, at Bush's first G8 summit.

On 2 Apr 2004 21:19:25 -0800, (Gareth Davis)
wrote:

Since we are on the topic of comparing things stateside, I thought I'd
share my recent experiences of the NYC subway system during a recent
stay.

[snip]
Overall I think that if I was offered reduced / flat fares NYC style
but in return for their shoddy, dirty, smelly stations, lack of staff,
lack of information and uncomfortable trains then I would turn it
down. After all, given the current exchange rate, I'm not paying more
then $4 a day for my Z1+2 annual. So everyone at LU reading this, give
yourselves a big pat on the back. I have experienced a comparable
system and the Underground is equal or far better in all aspects
except for cost. But then I guess you get what you pay for.

Of course I'm sure other people's experiences will be different.

well sort of. It's been a few years since I've been to NYC and I haven't
seen the newest trains. The main comment I would make is that the New
York subway had got to the point of almost total collapse 20 years ago.
In response to that their strategy was rightly to spend a lot of money
making the railway safe and fixing the decaying track, structures and
trains. It takes a hell of a long time to mend that sort of decay and
the stations were put at the back of the queue for attention. The order
of priorities can be argued about forever but I think the restoration of
a safe and reliable service was the right decision. I think it will take
about another 20 years to put right the overall ambience issues in their
stations and some aspects like the girder construction will probably
always be an issue in terms of security etc.

I can't ever see a time when New York does anything about the entrance
layout issues - it is virtually impossible to permanently close an
entrance on the New York subway. As a result there is little incentive
to provide lower level connections because there is no saving to be had
e.g. closing a ticket booth and saving the staff cost.

Some of the other observations are responses to societal problems -
upholstered seats would never work in NYC given the prevalence of
vandalism and graffiti. I agree that metal or plastic seats are not
comfy but it would be far too expensive to provide them.

I've not read anything about the information issues that you identify
but I do know that big investment in signalling and control systems has
been approved so it is likely that platform "next train" indicators will
follow in time.

I prefer to think that big metro systems can all teach other something.
There is plenty that is good about LUL or the NY Subway or Paris Metro.
None are better than the others in *all* aspects in my opinion. And it
isn't just what you pay for - it is also about how much society as a
whole pays and values its public transport systems.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 00:54:31 -0500, "JB" wrote:

Broadly I found the same things. One thing that seemed weird for me was to
get used to not having to put your ticket in the barrier to get out of the
station.

I'd say there are fewer stations and far fewer interchanges than in London,
but I love the idea of having express trains on the network.

There are 468 stations on the New York subway system. There are 275 on London
Underground.

I have traveled through 466 NYC subway stations--only omitting Pennsylvania
Ave. and New Lots Ave. in Brooklyn (they were a bit daunting when I lived in
New York).

Express trains of the type that New York has are very rare on subways and
metros worldwide. In fact, I believe that they are unique to New York.

I thought passenger information was very, very lacking. One thing that I
didn't think was particularly helpful was their using the term "uptown" and
"downtown" at the same time as having "up" stairs and "down" stairs.
Talking of stairs, haven't they heard of escalators? Money wise, overall, I
think it's got to be less expensive than London. $7 a day buys you an
unlimited travel card for subway/buses beats the £8+ for a Peak LT card.

In New York, they do economies of scale: there are more commuters there than
in London, I believe.

As for escalators, there are very few needed because most subway lines were
"cut and cover" lines rather than deep-bored tubes. There are some escalators
from #7 stations in Manhattan, and some in other places--going from the
elevated #4 station at 161st St. to the underground D station, for example
(ISTR, but my memory may be faulty).

Uptown and Downtown as directional designators helps signage as, for example,
at 42nd Street Times Square "Uptown" trains can end at 137th St., 148th St.
Lenox Terminal, 207th Street Washington Heights, 242nd Street Van Cortlandt
Park, 241st Street in the Bronx, 168th Street and Broadway, 57th Street
Manhattan, Ditmars Boulevard Astoria, or 179th Street Jamaica (some of these
may have changed in the interval of the last 13 years since I lived there...).
To put all these possible destinations on a sign outside the subway entrances
(not to mention the Downtown destinations, which could be quite extensive as
well) would mean a very large sign or very small writing. However, most New
Yorkers have a vague idea whether the place they're going is Uptown or
Downtown, and visitors either learn quickly or end up in Flatbush.

In Brooklyn, perversely, Downtown is the part nearest Manhattan, so a train
going "Downtown" from Coney Island will end up going "Uptown" once it reaches
Manhattan.

It's a quirk that residents just know, and visitors and newbies must quickly
learn.
--
Chris Hansen | chrishansenhome at btinternet dot com
"The problem with the French is that they have no word
for 'entrepreneur'." President Bush to Prime Minister
Blair, at Bush's first G8 summit.

All stations I saw appeared litter free with no signs of vandalism,
however it is probably fair to say every single one looked very dirty
and smelt like a public toilet! Most of the stations I used did show
signs of renovation work in progress although in a couple of cases
this meant that platforms and passageways were open with surfaces
potholed while they were in the process of relaying them. Also there
were no staff to be seen inside the ticket barriers on most stations.

They seem to be people who sit all day in a glass box, who you can't
understand what is being said.

One thing that caused me a great deal of confusion is that the
stations often have seperate external entrances for each direction of
travel, and no internal bridge/underpass if you enter via the wrong
one. Sometimes these external entrances were a block apart with no
signposting between them. I guess this is something you get used to,
but as a first time visitor to a station it is baffling.

The map is huge and confusing. The only thing I remember was the Q diamond,
and never understood what it did, compared to the Normal Q line.

About the same as the UK, less evidence of tagging on the trains
compared to the UK however they had a far worse etching problem,
probably down to some lines having everthing internal covered in
stainless steel plating. The newer trains had dot-matrix screens and
clear recorded announcements, just like the Jubilee and Northern
lines. One line also had lights behind each station on the route maps
above the windows which indicated the trains current position on the
line. One thing missing on all lines was seat cushions, the moulded
plastic seats quickly become uncomfortable. On most trains you could
look out the front window (drivers cab is on one side) which was kind
of cool to stand by for a near drivers eye view.

When I was there I was on a train that was announcing every station wrong
because it was an express train, used on a local service.

No tube maps posted on platforms (usually the only one is outside the
gateline), no destination/time indicators on platforms, most
announcements muffled and distorted (yes, much worse than London).
Signs were of variable quality. Given that multiple destinations
depart from the same platforms, and there are express/stopping
varients of services this lack of info didn't help.

The one thing that annoyed me. You swipe the tickets in a turnstile like
they do with Credit cards in a shop, but my card refused to swipe and I
spoke to the unhelpful man in the glass box and he muffled something to me
in another language, and he opened the side gate, which I went through, and
held open for about 3 others. Their revenue protection is awful. Anyway, I
missed a train and sat on a horrible platform with 10 buskers and watched
the dogs/rats run along the track and loud trains whizz through the middle.
Think of the Central line at bank and times the noise level by 5.
--
To reply direct, remove NOSPAM and replace with railwaysonline
For Railway Information, News & Photos check out the Award Winning Railways
Online at http://www.railwaysonline.co.uk
"Loving First Great Western Link since 2004"

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 at 21:19:25, Gareth Davis
wrote:

Of course I'm sure other people's experiences will be different.

I agree about the very uncomfortable seats - the same applied on the
buses, too. But overall I found the system fairly easy to use, and I
was impressed by the length of the trains - I was never on one that was
uncomfortably crowded, even when I travelled in the rush hours.

But they were nothing like as comfortable as DLR trains...... or even
Jubbly line (you usually get a seat at Canning Town going East, I find).
--
Annabel Smyth
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 8 March 2004

On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 at 12:47:55, Joe wrote:

The map is huge and confusing. The only thing I remember was the Q diamond,
and never understood what it did, compared to the Normal Q line.

Q Diamond was the express, normal Q the local (we took the Q Diamond to
get to and from where we were staying with a friend in Brooklyn).

One thing I didn't say in my previous post was how marvellous the
commuter trains seemed to be compared to SouthCentral and Thameslink! We
took the commuter train to Trenton, New Jersey, and changed there to
another commuter train to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and it was
wonderful. Really comfortable, for local trains, with staff on the
trains to check your ticket and reduce vandalism, clean lavatories that
worked...... enough said! Left SC and TL absolutely standing!
--
Annabel Smyth
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 8 March 2004

Express trains of the type that New York has are very rare on subways and
metros worldwide. In fact, I believe that they are unique to New York.

Not quite unique, as the Met line in London also operates express,
semi-fast and stopping services.
--
Spyke
Address is valid, but messages are treated as junk. The opinions I express do
not necessarily reflect those of the educational institution from which I post.

"Spyke" wrote in message
...

Express trains of the type that New York has are very rare on subways and
metros worldwide. In fact, I believe that they are unique to New York.

Not quite unique, as the Met line in London also operates express,
semi-fast and stopping services.

Although can the Met Line's overground service to Amersham etc really be
classed as a subway/underground service or is it a main-line service that
would be operated by National Rail and TOCs if it were in south London?