On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Tom Anderson wrote:

What's the point of trams?

Thanks to everyone who's replied; a most enlightening thread!

I'm still not entirely convinced by the tramites, but i think some
important points a

- Electric traction is really good
- Big buses are really hard to steer (at present)
- Having a fixed line is really comforting for passengers

And crucially:

- Buses haven't really been given a chance; they never get the same level
of infrastructure (stations, off-road routes, vehicle quality, driver
training, control systems, etc) as trams, and so we can't yet make a
fair comparison

tom

--
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On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 21:47:19 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote:

- Buses haven't really been given a chance; they never get the same level
of infrastructure (stations, off-road routes, vehicle quality, driver
training, control systems, etc) as trams, and so we can't yet make a
fair comparison

The operation of Route 102 in Hamburg (now MetroBus something or other) is
very educational, as it basically operates using tram infrastructure[1] -
as it runs the exact route on the exact bit of road where the trams did
until the 1960s, but with bendy buses (Merc O405s) nowadays
instead of trams.

It works well - only problem is severe peak overcrowding, but nothing a
few extra buses wouldn't solve, and nothing trams don't suffer from (see
Metrolink).

Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that trams in Hamburg would be a waste of
money. A high-quality service is already provided using buses. This
quality of bus operation is something you just don't see in the UK - and I
include the days of the National Bus Company before deregulation.

[1] Dedicated bus lanes in the middle of the road rather than at the
sides, "tram" traffic lights, priority at lights, stops by traffic lights
to allow time "wasted" waiting at the lights to be used for
boarding/alighting, ticket machines at busy stops, multiple-door boarding,
high standing capacity etc.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
Mail me on neil at the above domain; mail to the above address is NOT read

Tom Anderson wrote:

: - Buses haven't really been given a chance; they never get the same level
: of infrastructure (stations, off-road routes, vehicle quality, driver
: training, control systems, etc) as trams, and so we can't yet make a
: fair comparison

Well, they have - in some places in the Netherlands. For example, the
city bus services of Almere run almost completely on reserved roads
(which are closed to all traffic except buses, emergency vehicles
and AFAIR taxis). Yes, I mean bus roads, not just bus lanes. :-)

Another example is the new "Zuidtangent" route connecting Haarlem and
the southern and southeastern suburbs of Amsterdam, which also runs
partly on reserved roads and has some rather impressive stations.

.... Martin

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Tom Anderson wrote:


What's the point of trams?
(snip "for" arguments)
And crucially:

- Buses haven't really been given a chance; they never get the same level
of infrastructure (stations, off-road routes, vehicle quality, driver
training, control systems, etc) as trams, and so we can't yet make a
fair comparison

tom

In this country, we shall see how well buses work with high-quality
dedicated infrastructure when Greenwich Waterfront and East London
Transits start operating in around 4 years' time.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London