"Basil Jet" wrote in message
news

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/trams/the-future-of-trams

"Since 2000, we have seen the number of passengers on trams increase from 14
million to 32 million passengers in 2015. Passenger numbers are expected to
reach nearly 60 million by 2030.

We need to upgrade the trams network to accommodate this growth"

Um, how does building a new line to serve a new area create extra capacity
to accommodate growth on the current network?

and then there's

"The second phase would unlock the potential of the Wandle Valley and St
Helier areas for housing,"

Um, what part of these areas that is not already built on do they think has
not been deliberately left as open space for leisure purposes?

Perhaps they think that there should be a new estate on Morden Hall park. I
doubt that the National Trust would agree with that idea

and if we are going to build on this green space, there isn't a need for a
new transport link to accommodate it.

Though it's great to see the line being used extensively

I had 30 years growing up with a local station that got a next to useless
service and consequently whenever you did go and use it it had little more
than a dozen passengers.

and now it's got full [1] trains running every 5 minutes for 18 hours of the
day.

There must be a lesson here that can be learnt for (some) other Cinderella
services.

[1] OK I concede that when I last used it - at 8:30 on a Saturday morning,
there was just me and the station cat.

On Friday, 12 October 2018 08:28:10 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
"Basil Jet" basilpam.com wrote in message
news

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/trams/the-future-of-trams

"Since 2000, we have seen the number of passengers on trams increase from 14
million to 32 million passengers in 2015. Passenger numbers are expected to
reach nearly 60 million by 2030.

We need to upgrade the trams network to accommodate this growth"

Um, how does building a new line to serve a new area create extra capacity
to accommodate growth on the current network?

and then there's

"The second phase would unlock the potential of the Wandle Valley and St
Helier areas for housing,"

Um, what part of these areas that is not already built on do they think has
not been deliberately left as open space for leisure purposes?

Perhaps they think that there should be a new estate on Morden Hall park. I
doubt that the National Trust would agree with that idea

and if we are going to build on this green space, there isn't a need for a
new transport link to accommodate it.

Though it's great to see the line being used extensively

I had 30 years growing up with a local station that got a next to useless
service and consequently whenever you did go and use it it had little more
than a dozen passengers.

and now it's got full [1] trains running every 5 minutes for 18 hours of the
day.

There must be a lesson here that can be learnt for (some) other Cinderella
services.

[1] OK I concede that when I last used it - at 8:30 on a Saturday morning,
there was just me and the station cat.

Although I agree with the general tram extension idea, Tim is right about the extra housing paradox. Extra householders to take the tram to South Wimbledon to take the Northern Line to Bank... That is just smarming the problem around.

On 12/10/18 08:27, tim... wrote:
Um, how does building a new line to serve a new area create extra
capacity to accommodate growth on the current network?
Because some passengers will start using the new line in preference to
the old one. That's what HS2 is all about.

"martin.coffee" wrote in message
news
On 12/10/18 08:27, tim... wrote:
Um, how does building a new line to serve a new area create extra
capacity to accommodate growth on the current network?
Because some passengers will start using the new line in preference to the
old one.

the new line doesn't parallel the old one.

It goes somewhere completely different (having shared track for the first
2/3 stations

That's what HS2 is all about.

It's not analogous at all

tim... wrote:

"martin.coffee" wrote in message
news
On 12/10/18 08:27, tim... wrote:
Um, how does building a new line to serve a new area create extra
capacity to accommodate growth on the current network?
Because some passengers will start using the new line in preference to the
old one.

the new line doesn't parallel the old one.

It goes somewhere completely different (having shared track for the first
2/3 stations


You cannot put more trams into Wimbledon station as there is no space so
if you want to increase the numbr of trams along Croydon-Wimbledon axis
you need another terminal. Thus add South Wimbledon - and in ths case
not all its trams will go to Sutton others will go to Croydon.


And that is what is says in the document.

Unlocking
the potential of the
Wandle Valley


"Trams could unlock this by delivering
a new South Wimbledon-Croydon
service, offering more capacity and
new connectivity
• The housing gain could help fund
many of the needed tram
enhancements
"

Note Wandle Valley is along the current Croydon-Mitcham tram line.


That's what HS2 is all about.

It's not analogous at all




--
Mark

"Mark Bestley" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:

"martin.coffee" wrote in message
news
On 12/10/18 08:27, tim... wrote:
Um, how does building a new line to serve a new area create extra
capacity to accommodate growth on the current network?
Because some passengers will start using the new line in preference to
the
old one.

the new line doesn't parallel the old one.

It goes somewhere completely different (having shared track for the first
2/3 stations


You cannot put more trams into Wimbledon station as there is no space so
if you want to increase the numbr of trams along Croydon-Wimbledon axis
you need another terminal. Thus add South Wimbledon - and in ths case
not all its trams will go to Sutton others will go to Croydon.


And that is what is says in the document.

Unlocking
the potential of the
Wandle Valley


"Trams could unlock this by delivering
a new South Wimbledon-Croydon
service, offering more capacity and
new connectivity
• The housing gain could help fund
many of the needed tram
enhancements
"

Note Wandle Valley is along the current Croydon-Mitcham tram line.

but that's all provided by the new (proposed) terminus at S Wimbledon

the line to Sutton provides none of that benefit, that's my point.

You might argue that building the line to Sutton makes the S Wimbledon
terminus more cost effective, but that's a fallacious argument.

And in any case, if the congested part of the route is at Wandle Valley and
you need somewhere short of Wimbledon to turn extra services from Croydon
(until Crossrail 2 (don't laugh) releases space at Wimbledon Main), adding a
third platform/track at Merton Park by using the (still undeveloped) land
previously occupied by the junction to Merton Abbey, seems a much
quicker/cheaper way to provide that.

It might be argued that a terminus at Merton Park is no good to anybody, but
what is the real benefit of S Wimbledon. Oh it interchanges with the
underground. Though what percentage of travellers are going to want to do
that (given that trams from Sutton have already passed Morden station)? For
Central London, change at Wimbledon onto Waterloo services is much quicker.

And where is this route to SW going to go. Down the already very congested
main road? And where's the station going to be? I can't see that putting a
station there is going to be possible without knocking down a number of
properties (or putting it underground).

This idea of a track to SW just looks like, what did someone call it
"lineism!

tim

On 12/10/2018 17:22, tim... wrote:

This idea of a track to SW just looks like, what did someone call it
"lineism!

Crayonism is the only term I've heard.

--
Basil Jet - listening... S.Y.P.H.. SPK. Saccharine Trust. Saint Etienne.
San Fermin. Sananda Maitreya (Terence Trent D'Arby). Sarah Cracknell.
Sarah Neufeld. Sarandon. Sarathy Korwar. Sascha Funke. Savage Republic.
Savath+Savalas. Scars. Schizo Fun Addict. Scientists. Scritti Politti.
Seasick Steve. Section 25. Set Fire To Flames. Severed Heads. Sex
Pistols. Shack. Shackleton. Sharon Van Etten. Shed 7. Shigeto. Shock
Headed Peters. Shrag. Shriekback. Shut Up.

On 12/10/2018 17:22, tim... wrote:

This idea of a track to SW just looks like, what did someone call it
"lineism!


looks like a future tram terminus to me.

However, alignments to Colliers Wood station seem a lot easier.


--
Basil Jet - listening... S.Y.P.H.. SPK. Saccharine Trust. Saint Etienne.
San Fermin. Sananda Maitreya (Terence Trent D'Arby). Sarah Cracknell.
Sarah Neufeld. Sarandon. Sarathy Korwar. Sascha Funke. Savage Republic.
Savath+Savalas. Scars. Schizo Fun Addict. Scientists. Scritti Politti.
Seasick Steve. Section 25. Set Fire To Flames. Severed Heads. Sex
Pistols. Shack. Shackleton. Sharon Van Etten. Shed 7. Shigeto. Shock
Headed Peters. Shrag. Shriekback. Shut Up.

"Basil Jet" wrote in message
news
On 12/10/2018 17:22, tim... wrote:

This idea of a track to SW just looks like, what did someone call it
"lineism!


looks like a future tram terminus to me.

yup there's loads of derelict land around the former Merton Abbey station,
slowly being redeveloped


However, alignments to Colliers Wood station seem a lot easier.

Really?

you need to show your working

On 13/10/2018 13:50, Basil Jet wrote:
On 12/10/2018 17:22, tim... wrote:

This idea of a track to SW just looks like, what did someone call it
"lineism!


looks like a future tram terminus to me.

Damn, that was supposed to be https://goo.gl/maps/ZbELWcYrPvt


--
Basil Jet - listening... S.Y.P.H.. SPK. Saccharine Trust. Saint Etienne.
San Fermin. Sananda Maitreya (Terence Trent D'Arby). Sarah Cracknell.
Sarah Neufeld. Sarandon. Sarathy Korwar. Sascha Funke. Savage Republic.
Savath+Savalas. Scars. Schizo Fun Addict. Scientists. Scritti Politti.
Seasick Steve. Section 25. Set Fire To Flames. Severed Heads. Sex
Pistols. Shack. Shackleton. Sharon Van Etten. Shed 7. Shigeto. Shock
Headed Peters. Shrag. Shriekback. Shut Up.