On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 01:05:13 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .

I'm genuinely surprised to see that list -
I thought you made of stronger stuff John!.

I once was, but a drug addict with a knife taught me a valuable lesson.

OK - I can respect that.

Doing necessary dangerous things shows courage, and is to be respected.
Doing unnecessary dangerous things shows stupidity, and deserves no respect.

I needed to go into a council estate last week - on the way in I witnessed a
police chase, and shortly after that the road was shut. As soon as the road
was opened I drove in and walked around. I do it when I have to. Most people
have no need to go into council estates, so it is stupid for them to do it.

I think I disagree with the use of the word "stupid". I don't really
want to get into semantics but "ill advised" might give a better
meaning. I know what you are saying but your concerns are helping to
reinforce the ghetto attitude that increasingly pervades this country.
Please note I am not having a go at *you* with my comments.

We are accepting by default that it is somehow "right" for non locals
not to go and see a council estate or visit it. This means that those
who do live there get their ghetto mentality re-inforced. And
consequentially those people who live in "better" places feel smugger
and more self justified in avoiding the council estates. I find it all
very sad as I see it as one of my human rights to be able to go where I
want (within reason) unhindered and under the protection of the law (and
police officers).
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:02:40 +0100, Jason wrote:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 23:48:15 +0100, John Ray
wrote:

I must try some of those! In the meantime, I would add the 48 to the
"eye-opener" list, particularly the Lea Bridge Road to Clapton section.

As someone who does part of this route infrequently - what in
particular are you attempting to highlight here?

Am wondering what I've missed!

I am guessing but the transition from urban Hackney to the lower reaches
of the Lea Valley with canals, canal side pubs, pony trekking centres
and the marsh lands. Go for a walk on them - you would never know you
were in London and the cycle path beside the canal is very pleasant on a
warm day. Obviously you then wander into Waltham Forest which is a
built up area but I always feel that it is somehow "separated" from
Inner London. Certainly true if you cross from Tottenham over Forest
Road with reservoirs each side with people fishing and birds skimming
the water - lovely on a Summer's morning at 07.00 on the top deck of a
123 bus.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 at 18:39:45, Paul Corfield
wrote:

We are accepting by default that it is somehow "right" for non locals
not to go and see a council estate or visit it. This means that those
who do live there get their ghetto mentality re-inforced.

But unless you are visiting a particular family or individual who lives
there, what are you accomplishing by just wandering round - sort of
Anthropologist Visits Native Village, sort of thing. Which I am
beginning to find offensive when it is a programme about how people live
in Africa or Malaysia - after all, I shouldn't like to have my life
shown on television for all to see.

Obviously, if it's somewhere that has won several awards (and most of
the houses have been sold off, and probably worth a lot more than
they're worth), that's different.

I frequently cut through the council estate near us to get to where I
want to go, and don't have a problem with it, but I should hate to do so
at night simply because it is too quiet; people stay indoors with the
television on, and it is traffic-free, so there aren't loads of cars
passing, as there are on the main road. Another friend, though, has
absolutely no qualms.
--
Annabel Smyth
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 8 March 2004

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:02:40 +0100, Jason wrote:


On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 23:48:15 +0100, John Ray
wrote:


I must try some of those! In the meantime, I would add the 48 to the
"eye-opener" list, particularly the Lea Bridge Road to Clapton section.

As someone who does part of this route infrequently - what in
particular are you attempting to highlight here?

Am wondering what I've missed!


I am guessing but the transition from urban Hackney to the lower reaches
of the Lea Valley with canals, canal side pubs, pony trekking centres
and the marsh lands. Go for a walk on them - you would never know you
were in London and the cycle path beside the canal is very pleasant on a
warm day. Obviously you then wander into Waltham Forest which is a
built up area but I always feel that it is somehow "separated" from
Inner London. Certainly true if you cross from Tottenham over Forest
Road with reservoirs each side with people fishing and birds skimming
the water - lovely on a Summer's morning at 07.00 on the top deck of a
123 bus.

Oh!

I assumed the OP was referring to the stench of poppers and skunk coming
from the teenage mothers on the top deck.

(At least that was my experience of the 48 on Lea Bridge Road last week.)

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:15:44 +0100, Annabel Smyth
wrote:

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 at 18:39:45, Paul Corfield
wrote:

We are accepting by default that it is somehow "right" for non locals
not to go and see a council estate or visit it. This means that those
who do live there get their ghetto mentality re-inforced.

But unless you are visiting a particular family or individual who lives
there, what are you accomplishing by just wandering round - sort of
Anthropologist Visits Native Village, sort of thing. Which I am
beginning to find offensive when it is a programme about how people live
in Africa or Malaysia - after all, I shouldn't like to have my life
shown on television for all to see.
Obviously, if it's somewhere that has won several awards (and most of
the houses have been sold off, and probably worth a lot more than
they're worth), that's different.

But if I decide I want to go to Peckham to see the award winning library
and then catch a bus or continue walking to the North Peckham estate
because I feel like it don't I have a right to go there? If the
residents get upset then tough provided I'm not being insulting or
damaging their property or commiting some other crime. Plenty of people
wander down my street but I don't consider I have any right at all to
object to them doing so provided they aren't committing a crime. I also
don't consider them to be stupid if they opt to do it either.

I take your point about television about other cultures - a lot of
current stuff is done with little sensitivity which makes it very
intrusive. Somehow though I think your life (or something probably close
to it) already has been on television.

I frequently cut through the council estate near us to get to where I
want to go, and don't have a problem with it, but I should hate to do so
at night simply because it is too quiet; people stay indoors with the
television on, and it is traffic-free, so there aren't loads of cars
passing, as there are on the main road. Another friend, though, has
absolutely no qualms.

Well I see why you are concerned of an evening. I had the unfortunate
pleasure to be a juror for a trial involving an assault. It took place
on a railway (not LUL) and involved a decent young chap. The whole
experience left me feeling really quite unnerved (almost certainly
wrongly) about a significant proportion of our youth populace. Much of
that concern has now passed by as the apparent risk highlighted by the
trial hasn't materialised in my own life. Perhaps there is an advantage
to not buying my local rag and reading the scandalised headlines about
attacks?
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In message , Annabel Smyth
writes
But unless you are visiting a particular family or individual who lives
there, what are you accomplishing by just wandering round - sort of
Anthropologist Visits Native Village, sort of thing.
In my case, it usually means that I'm doing a guided tour, especially if
it's a Peabody Estate or something like that which I'd particularly want
to show people because of the intrinsic interest.

But - as usual - I accept that I'm a bit odd! :-))

--
Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK
Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for
London & the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In article ,
Annabel Smyth wrote:
But unless you are visiting a particular family or individual who lives
there, what are you accomplishing by just wandering round - sort of
Anthropologist Visits Native Village, sort of thing.

Why can't I enjoy a public space without fear? Why shouldn't I
take that short-cut? Why can't I explore the area within a mile
or two of where I live? Why can't I study the architecture of
1960's council builds? Why can't I get lost?

--
You dont have to be illiterate to use the Internet, but it help's.

Dave Newt firebird.remove.net.this.remove.me.20.den@spamgou rmet.com
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

I am guessing but the transition from urban Hackney to the lower reaches
of the Lea Valley with canals, canal side pubs, pony trekking centres
and the marsh lands. Go for a walk on them - you would never know you
were in London and the cycle path beside the canal is very pleasant on a
warm day. Obviously you then wander into Waltham Forest which is a
built up area but I always feel that it is somehow "separated" from
Inner London. Certainly true if you cross from Tottenham over Forest
Road with reservoirs each side with people fishing and birds skimming
the water - lovely on a Summer's morning at 07.00 on the top deck of a
123 bus.

Oh!

I assumed the OP was referring to the stench of poppers and skunk coming
from the teenage mothers on the top deck.

(At least that was my experience of the 48 on Lea Bridge Road last week.)

Sorry to sound so naïve, but what do poppers smell like?

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 at 22:34:04, Mike Bristow wrote:

In article ,
Annabel Smyth wrote:
But unless you are visiting a particular family or individual who lives
there, what are you accomplishing by just wandering round - sort of
Anthropologist Visits Native Village, sort of thing.

Why can't I enjoy a public space without fear? Why shouldn't I
take that short-cut? Why can't I explore the area within a mile
or two of where I live? Why can't I study the architecture of
1960's council builds? Why can't I get lost?

I don't know. You tell me.....
--
Annabel Smyth
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 8 March 2004

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:12:48 +0930, (Aidan Stanger)
wrote:

Dave Newt firebird.remove.net.this.remove.me.20.den@spamgou rmet.com
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

I am guessing but the transition from urban Hackney to the lower reaches
of the Lea Valley with canals, canal side pubs, pony trekking centres
and the marsh lands. Go for a walk on them - you would never know you
were in London and the cycle path beside the canal is very pleasant on a
warm day. Obviously you then wander into Waltham Forest which is a
built up area but I always feel that it is somehow "separated" from
Inner London. Certainly true if you cross from Tottenham over Forest
Road with reservoirs each side with people fishing and birds skimming
the water - lovely on a Summer's morning at 07.00 on the top deck of a
123 bus.

Oh!

I assumed the OP was referring to the stench of poppers and skunk coming
from the teenage mothers on the top deck.

(At least that was my experience of the 48 on Lea Bridge Road last week.)

Sorry to sound so naïve, but what do poppers smell like?

Like Amyl Nitrite :-)
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War:
http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm
625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk