Tom Anderson wrote:

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, Aidan Stanger wrote:

Nitro wrote:

From King's Cross the line would continue to Dalston Junction station
and Hackney Central station.

Do you mean Hackney Downs?

Comes to much the same thing - they're only a paving-slab's-toss apart.

On the map, but have you ever tried walking from one to the other?

The line would then surface near Clapton, or if this is not possible
an underground station at Clapton. Some trains would then continue to
Chingford,

Although you're not the first to suggest a Crossrail line take over the
Chingford branch, it doesn't seem such a good idea to me. The loss of a
direct service to the City would be very unpopular with many people who
moved to the area because of its good links to the City.

Okay, Crossrail Three And A Half:

Take over the Chingford branch, or even the entire suburban West Anglia;
get as far as the current Bethnal Green station (which should be closed
with extreme prejudice,

What have you got against Bethnal Green station? Would it be any
different if it and the station on the Central Line had different names?

and replaced with one over the road from, and
joined by a tunnel to, the Central Line station of the same name - hey
look, now you can get from northeast London to the Central Line without
interchanging at Liverpool Street!),

You could do that better if there were more trains to Stratford from the
North.

then dive and go underground to
Liverpool Street (where cross-platform interchange with the Central line
would be lovely, but almost certainly entirely impossible), possibly with
a new stop somewhere around Shoreditch, then carry on to Moorgate
(probably, nay hopefully, demolishing some - frankly very ugly - office
buildings on the way) and take over the Widened Lines (which by now have
been given up by Thameslink due to the platform lengthening at
Farringdon); just before Farringdon, veer off into a new bit of tunnel to
King's Cross (yes, that makes a grand total of three parallel tracks
between Farringdon and King's Cross), and thence follow whatever route
Nitro proposed, or just go crazy and tunnel to Cork or something.

More direct routes are usually better.

Note that i know **** all about the technical aspects of railways, and
have thought of this off the top of my head, so sorry if it's a bit silly.

It is, but silly ideas can be developed into sensible ones.
Sensible ideas can also be developed into silly ones, as can be seen at
http://www.crossrail.co.uk.


-- ... to build a space elevator, that's got to be hundreds of thousands
of pounds ... -- Mike Froggatt

Who's Mike Froggatt?

You're proposing a multibillion pound railway and you're worried that
lengthening suburban platforms would be too expensive???

I agree with James. The plan is hopelessly unrealistic and it's probably a hoax.

Having said that, hopelessly unrealistic plans can be quite fun. I
have my own unrealistic (but hopefully not hopeless) crossrail line
plan:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/james.dowden/xrail.htm

In article ,
(James) wrote:

Crossrail 3 would then takeover the Wimbledon slow lines and serve
Vauxhall, Battersea (new platforms),

What's wrong with the old ones? Or are you saying that there should be
new platforms on the Victoria to Brixton line?

The problem with Queenstown Road Battersea is that it's only on the
Windsor Lines. The proposal is basically a SW (Main) Slow Lines
takeover.

Is there room though? There are only two (used) Windsor Line platforms and
the faster trains don't call.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

James wrote:

You're proposing a multibillion pound railway and you're worried that
lengthening suburban platforms would be too expensive???

I agree with James. The plan is hopelessly unrealistic and it's probably
a hoax.

How could it be a hoax? He never claimed the plan was anything other
than his own, and ISTR Ken was making those sorts of comments around
that time.

Having said that, hopelessly unrealistic plans can be quite fun. I
have my own unrealistic (but hopefully not hopeless) crossrail line
plan:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/james.dowden/xrail.htm

Well I for one am glad it is hopeless. Why would passengers from
Dartford and the Sidcup Line or Orpington want to go to Lewisham then
back to Blackheath then loop round the docklands?

(Aidan Stanger) wrote in message ...
Nitro -

The version of Crossrail I favour is as follows:

take over the slow lines on the WCML to
Milton Keynes (and possibly Northampton, but as Northampton's so much
further away it might be better to terminate Crossrail services at
Wolverton and give Northampton to Virgin).

Would probably be running with 12 cars, but this may not be enough.
Remember that capacity is limited on the Slow Lines, and that you may
end up attracting Virgin passengers at Milton Keynes.


London Underground would take over the Euston to Watford Junction
service using Tube stock (so the platform height could be optimized).
Initially this would run into the main Euston station,

I read somewhere that lack of platform space at Euston prevented
frequency from being increased on the DC Line.

Line 2:

Tunnel from Clapham Junction (somewhere between Latchmere Road and
Cranleigh Avenue) to Dalston Junction (via Battersea West, Chelsea,
Victoria, Piccadilly Circus, TCR, Kings Cross St.Pancras, Angel, and
Essex Rd. It would then take over the NLL and run to Woolwich Arsenal
via a new tunnel from Silvertown (N Woolwich would close).

Did you know that the SRA are looking at running NLL trains on
Crossrail from Custom House to Abbey Wood?

As with your proposal, the trains don't have to terminate at
Clapham*Junction. They could take over some of the services that
currently run to Waterloo.

Problem with this is that passengers for Canary Wharf would have to
change twice - once onto already packed trains to Waterloo at Clapham
Junction, and then onto the Jubilee Line. Your Line 2 has no
convenient interchange with a line going to the Wharf.

(The numbering of the following lines may not indicate the best order to
build them in)
Line 3:
Tunnel mostly below the Circle Line from Paddington to Liverpool St then
via Whitechapel to Poplar. Surface and run to Custom House.

Is there space for another surface line? - will you have to demolish
buildings, or build it above the road? (but then where will the
supports go?) I don't know.

Line 4:
Tunnel from Waterloo (or more likely, somewhere beyond Vauxhall) to
Bethnal Green via Blackfriars, St.Pauls and Liverpool Street. This would
almost certainly require the demolishion of a few buildings, including
the new one at 1 London Wall.

The surface Bethnal Green, I assume.

Line 5: Tunnel from Moorgate (or Old Street) to South London via
London*Bridge.

And an underground Cannon Street, if not too expensive.


As for the rest of the points you mentioned:

others to Stansted Airport.

With what stopping pattern?

Tottenham Hale, Bishops Stortford, Stansted Airport

Duplicating the Stansted Express. Why?

OK, add the four tracking of the line to the proposals.

The rest of the service would have to terminate in an as
yet undecided location (possibly Clapham Junction - build some
reversing sidings there?).

Why?

So people can get on trains at somewhere like Vauxhall.

Why wouldn't they be able to do that if the trains went further?

The trains may be full.

· Avoids the problem of building a mainline station at
Piccadilly Circus

Just what exactly is the problem there?

Not enough space underground for a mainline station

I've heard that claim before, but am not convinced. Where exactly is
there not enough space?

I don't know, but LUL omitted it from the Express Metro versions of
the Chelsea-Hackney Line because of this reason.

I've had a better idea - keep Crossrail 2 but make the Watford DC Line
a branch of it!

The central tunnel from Clapham Junction (or wherever) through
Battersea, Victoria, Piccadilly Circus, Tottenham Court Road and Kings
Cross would remain unchanged.

After Kings Cross one branch would continue to Dalston Junction,
Hackney Central and onto wherever this branch is going. Another
branch would go to Camden Town, and then takeover the Euston -Watford
DC Line (which would no longer go to Euston - passengers can change at
Camden Town). The Bakerloo Line would be cut back to Queen's Park.

Euston already has good connections to Victoria and Waterloo, and so
does not need better links to Clapham Junction. Going via King's
Cross allows more places to be connected to the CTRL. Euston -
Watford DC Line passengers for the Northern Line can change at Camden
Town, while Victoria Line passengers can change at King's Cross.

* Improved service on this line.
* Most northern options involve diverting lines away from the City
(and with the Epping branch away from Stratford for Canary Wharf),
generating a huge amount of interchange. With the Euston - Watford DC
Line no such diversion is needed.
* Direct link from CTRL to Willesden Junction (and Park Royal area),
improving regeneration potential of the land there.
* Improved links to the National Football Stadium at Wembley,
including a more frequent link to the West Coast Main Line at Watford
Junction. It also makes land at Wembley more attractive for
redevelopment.
* More rail capacity at Camden Town, with new journey opportunities.
* No stations would have to close (with Crossrail 1 South Hampstead
and Kilburn High Road may have closed if this line was part of that
scheme).
* Relief to London Euston.
* Relief to the Bakerloo Line.
* Relief to the Metropolitan Line.
* Relief to Crossrail Line one between Paddington and Tottenham Court
Road.
* Relief to the North London Line between Willesden Junction and
Camden Road.
* Possible relief to the North London Line between Camden and Dalston
(tickets are cheaper on Crossrail 2 with Oyster prepay, line is more
frequent, fewer stops - although one cross platform interchange) If
not relief then mopping up of overspill passengers.
* If Crossrail 2 is to be a tube line, the Euston - Watford line is
fairly segregated, making it easier to incorporate the line into the
scheme.
* Some people may be upset at the loss of the Bakerloo line, however
as there would be less stops between Queen's Park and Tottenham Court
Road via Camden Town than via Bakerloo line and Crossrail 1, Crossrail
2 offers a quicker journey for most people. People can still change
at Queen's Park for the Bakerloo Line.
* Allows Class 313 trains that currently operate on this line to be
reallocated, strengthening services on other lines.

(Aidan Stanger) wrote in message ...
James wrote:

You're proposing a multibillion pound railway and you're worried that
lengthening suburban platforms would be too expensive???

I agree with James. The plan is hopelessly unrealistic and it's probably
a hoax.

How could it be a hoax? He never claimed the plan was anything other
than his own, and ISTR Ken was making those sorts of comments around
that time.

Having said that, hopelessly unrealistic plans can be quite fun. I
have my own unrealistic (but hopefully not hopeless) crossrail line
plan:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/james.dowden/xrail.htm

Well I for one am glad it is hopeless. Why would passengers from
Dartford and the Sidcup Line or Orpington want to go to Lewisham then
back to Blackheath then loop round the docklands?

You're thinking of where these places are on the NSE Map. It's not as
crazy a route on a normal map. In fact, they might even want to go to
Docklands...

"Nitro" wrote in message
om...
Crossrail 3

Hi all,

As an alternative to the Chelsea-Hackney Line, Mayor Ken Livingstone
talked about a Crossrail 3 between Euston and Waterloo and said this
may go ahead if it has a stronger case than Crossrail 2. Here is a
proposal for a Crossrail 3. Feel free to comment on it.

The Line

The Central tunnel would run from Waterloo, stopping at Temple (at the
western end of the station) and Tottenham Court Road (with an
additional exit near Covent Garden / Leicester Square) before dividing
into two branches: one branch would go to Euston, the other branch to
King's Cross.

From Euston the line would surface near a new Camden Lock station
(either on Parkway (the street) or near Chalk Farm Safeway) and would
continue along the 'DC' lines to Watford Junction. The Bakerloo Line
would be cut back to Queen's Park. As at most 12 trains per hour
(tph) would run on this line, the Bakerloo Line would still be able to
use Stonebridge Park Depot.

From King's Cross the line would continue to Dalston Junction station
and Hackney Central station. The line would then surface near Clapton,
or if this is not possible an underground station at Clapton. Some
trains would then continue to Chingford, others to Stansted Airport.

From Waterloo the line would surface between Vauxhall and Waterloo.
Crossrail 3 would then takeover the Wimbledon slow lines and serve
Vauxhall, Battersea (new platforms), Clapham Junction and on to
Hampton Court (4 tph), Chessington South (4tph), Shepperton (4tph) and
Espom (4tph). The rest of the service would have to terminate in an as
yet undecided location (possibly Clapham Junction - build some
reversing sidings there?). Connections between the fast lines and
slow lines would be retained in the event of an emergency (e.g. if SWT
and Crossrail 3 had to squeeze onto the slow lines).

In the North, the 4tph to Chessington South would go up to Watford
Junction, as would the unspecified 8tph (that terminates somewhere
along the line - Clapham Junction?). The remaining 12tph goes to
Stansted / Chingford (2tph to Stansted, 10tph to Chingford).

(snip)

Any mention of Crossrail 2 (or even 1) makes me wonder where the funds are
coming from, but why not "save" money by building a single Crossrail
designed to combine the most important benefits of Crossrails 1 and 2.

You could combine the east part of Crossrail 1 with the southwest part of
your line, by means of a core connection between Liverpool Street and
Waterloo. That would relieve the most crowded (eastern) part of Central
line, the main Liverpool Street suburban line, and the main Waterloo
suburban line.

Core stations (most double ended) would be at Waterloo, Temple, Holborn,
Farringdon and Liverpool Street.

There would be interchanges with all existing underground lines except East
London and Docklands.

You could run full-sized dual-powered trains, as on Thameslink.

"David Fairthorne" wrote in message
.rogers.com...

(snip)

Any mention of Crossrail 2 (or even 1) makes me wonder where the funds are
coming from, but why not "save" money by building a single Crossrail
designed to combine the most important benefits of Crossrails 1 and 2.

You could combine the east part of Crossrail 1 with the southwest part of
your line, by means of a core connection between Liverpool Street and
Waterloo. That would relieve the most crowded (eastern) part of Central
line, the main Liverpool Street suburban line, and the main Waterloo
suburban line.

Core stations (most double ended) would be at Waterloo, Temple, Holborn,
Farringdon and Liverpool Street.

There would be interchanges with all existing underground lines except
East
London and Docklands.

You could run full-sized dual-powered trains, as on Thameslink.

This was one of the route options in the East-West study for Crossrail. The
central route would be Clapham Jn - Victoria - TCR - Farringdon - Liv St.

http://www.sra.gov.uk/publications/g...other2001_05_0
3eastwest.pdf

p.14 gives the discussion between the three Crossrail options (Paddington -
Liv St, Wimbledon - Liv St, Wimbledon - Hackney) and why they chose the
first and last of those three (see below). p. 29 gives the maps of the
routes.

The Paddington to Liverpool Street options:
.. have the highest proportion of travellers that will
benefit from fewer interchanges;
.. are likely to generate the least short term disruption
to established passenger travel patterns;
.. the Regional Metro is best at supporting
regeneration given its penetration of West London;
.. can be brought into operation more quickly and
with least risk.

The Wimbledon to Liverpool Street options:
.. do most to reduce Central London interchange;
.. have the greatest impact on road traffic congestion
relief;
.. offer a better balance of impacts on passengers once
construction is complete;
.. would not provide full relief of congestion;
.. would prevent the subsequent construction
of either of the other two routes.

The Wimbledon to Hackney options:
.. are best at reducing overcrowding on the network;
.. would generate a significant volume of interchange
at Tottenham Court Road, principally onto the
Central line. This would require the capacity of
both the Central line and the station to be
examined to ensure they could cope both safely and
with adequate passenger comfort.

In the light of the assessment it is our
recommendation that the Paddington to Liverpool
Street Regional Metro should progress to the project
definition stage and should form the backbone of the
20 year programme. The reasons for selecting this
option are as follows:
.. provides significant relief to overcrowding in
Central London and on the Great Western and
Great Eastern Main lines;
.. provides direct access from the West to the West
End and the City;
.. provides direct access from the East to the West
End;
.. assists the regeneration of West London eg Park
Royal, Wembley and Paddington Basin and the
Thames Gateway. It also seems likely to do more to
reduce social exclusion on both sides of Central
London;
.. the infrastructure uses a similar alignment to a
safeguarded route that should provide a lower level
of risk than the other options;
.. causes the least disruption to existing travellers;
.. supports the creation of Hubs at Ealing Broadway
and Stratford;
.. allows the subsequent construction of a South West
- North East scheme such as options 5 and 6;
.. the likely programme to the opening of the scheme
will be shorter than the other options given the
preparatory work that has already been undertaken
by London Underground.

Angus

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004, Aidan Stanger wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, Aidan Stanger wrote:

Nitro wrote:

From King's Cross the line would continue to Dalston Junction station
and Hackney Central station.

Do you mean Hackney Downs?

Comes to much the same thing - they're only a paving-slab's-toss apart.

On the map, but have you ever tried walking from one to the other?

Yes, i've done it many times; whenever i get a train to fo shopping in
Hackney, in fact, since the high street (well, Mare Street, and in
particular Tesco, M&S and Woolworth's) is where Hackney Central is, and my
train comes in to Hackney Downs. It's a short walk.

The line would then surface near Clapton, or if this is not possible
an underground station at Clapton. Some trains would then continue to
Chingford,

Although you're not the first to suggest a Crossrail line take over the
Chingford branch, it doesn't seem such a good idea to me. The loss of a
direct service to the City would be very unpopular with many people who
moved to the area because of its good links to the City.

Okay, Crossrail Three And A Half:

Take over the Chingford branch, or even the entire suburban West Anglia;
get as far as the current Bethnal Green station (which should be closed
with extreme prejudice,

What have you got against Bethnal Green station?

In all the times i've been through it, i've not seen more than ten people
total get on or off the train; i therefore conclude that it isn't much
use. I think this is because it's not really in central Bethnal Green
(unlike the tube station), but i don't know the area well enough to say
for sure.

Would it be any different if it and the station on the Central Line had
different names?

Might be - i do get annoyed when there's a name shared by two stations.

and replaced with one over the road from, and joined by a tunnel to,
the Central Line station of the same name - hey look, now you can get
from northeast London to the Central Line without interchanging at
Liverpool Street!),

You could do that better if there were more trains to Stratford from the
North.

No i couldn't, because that would involve going via zone 3, which would
mean buying a more expensive ticket. Also, i suspect it would take rather
longer.

then dive and go underground to Liverpool Street (where cross-platform
interchange with the Central line would be lovely, but almost
certainly entirely impossible), possibly with a new stop somewhere
around Shoreditch, then carry on to Moorgate (probably, nay hopefully,
demolishing some - frankly very ugly - office buildings on the way)
and take over the Widened Lines (which by now have been given up by
Thameslink due to the platform lengthening at Farringdon); just before
Farringdon, veer off into a new bit of tunnel to King's Cross (yes,
that makes a grand total of three parallel tracks between Farringdon
and King's Cross), and thence follow whatever route Nitro proposed, or
just go crazy and tunnel to Cork or something.

More direct routes are usually better.

More direct routes between where and where? Not that i'm trying to defend
my plan here - beyond Liverpool Street, it's pretty random.

Note that i know **** all about the technical aspects of railways, and
have thought of this off the top of my head, so sorry if it's a bit silly.

It is, but silly ideas can be developed into sensible ones. Sensible
ideas can also be developed into silly ones, as can be seen at
http://www.crossrail.co.uk.

!

-- ... to build a space elevator, that's got to be hundreds of thousands
of pounds ... -- Mike Froggatt

Who's Mike Froggatt?

A friend of mine. Historian. Didn't have a clear idea of how much a space
elevator would cost.

tom

--
If you had a chance to do any experiment you pleased, unconstrained by any considerations of humanity or decency, what would you choose?