In message , at
21:05:26 on Fri, 14 Dec 2018, Robin remarked:

the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice. I'd
characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post (even if
it's only a one-trip season being paid for).

I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where arrangements
for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are either non-existent
or very clumsy, and they don't want to have a system for drivers to
report each trip as it happens, and the finance department pay the
charge from central funds rapidly enough.
--
Roland Perry

Absolutely! I could not agree more.

"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 14/12/2018 17:55, tim... wrote:


"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 14/12/2018 16:10, tim... wrote:


wrote in message
news On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
"tim..." wrote:
wrote in message
news On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
14:33:09 on
Mon, 10 Dec 2018, Billy No Mates Billy No
remarked:

Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number
of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and
only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that
people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.

The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming
everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free
trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time rail
fares
at the off-peak rate.

The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in order
to
extract
fines from those who don't.

ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy

I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the
traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through or
heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will
simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or
contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues
anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the real
bottleneck.

I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.

Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into the
correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the junction
joining only a few 100 yards before the tunnel

I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service areas
on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.

You can pay by phone so would this be for those who don't have a mobile
phone or those who want to pay in cash?

It'll be for those who don't know the number to phone because they didn't
have time to take it down as they drove past (if it's even there - I
forget)


I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.

And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic
or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

Presumably rental companies have a way to provide this

It's not like I'm going to roll up in my UK registered car, is it?

Unlike in Portugal, where I have a map that shows some motorways as having
traditional "pay at kiosk" tolls and others as toll-free

Unfortunately, the latter have now been changed to e-tolls. And where does
a foreigner get the e-toll card, you might ask? At the border as they enter
the country on one of these roads.

If you enter the country some other way and happen across one of these
e-till roads later, you are ****ed

It's nonsense like this that is just asking for the EU to impose common
standards, but they can't be bothered

tim

"John Levine" wrote in message
news
In article ,
Robin wrote:
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. ...

Cashless tolling is increasingly popular. The 407 motorway near
Toronto has always been cashless. If you travel frequently you can
rent a transponder, otherwise they photograph your license tag and
send you a bill. If you travel semi-frequently as I do, you can
register on their web site and they'll e-mail you the bill, slightly
cheaper than a paper bill. If you're in an HGV you must have a
transponder, presumably with a large fine issued otherwise.

Some of the toll barriers on the New York Thruway, some bridges in New
York City, and the Pennsylvania Turnpike have been turned into
gantries, more or less the same deal, and the Thruway is planning to
go totally cashless in a year or so, saying that the vast majority of
users already use transponders. The roads are all well signed with
LAST EXIT BEFORE TOLL and the like so you have little excuse to be
surprised.

It does help that most of the toll agencies in the northeastern US
belong to the E-ZPass consortium so if you have a transponder from any
of them, it works on all of them. The 407's transponders are
technically compatible but for some reason they don't belong. (It's
not because they're in Canada, since the Niagara River bridges are
all E-ZPass.)

and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls?

tim

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 21:05:26
on Fri, 14 Dec 2018, Robin remarked:

the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic
or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice. I'd
characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post (even if it's
only a one-trip season being paid for).

I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where arrangements for
reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are either non-existent or very
clumsy, and they don't want to have a system for drivers to report each
trip as it happens, and the finance department pay the charge from central
funds rapidly enough.

surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution, they can set
up an online account that does all this

tim

In message , at 10:50:11 on Sat, 15 Dec
2018, tim... remarked:

the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice. I'd
characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post (even if
it's only a one-trip season being paid for).

I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where
arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are
either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have a
system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the finance
department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough.

surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution, they
can set up an online account that does all this

Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which appear to
them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a school (even one
in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online account for even the
Head's car, should he have some official business the other side of the
river. How would that account not end up also paying for his leisure
trips, for example? The postal payment, however, could be ringfenced for
just one trip.
--
Roland Perry

On 15/12/2018 10:48, tim... wrote:


"John Levine" wrote in message
news
In article ,
RobinÂ* wrote:
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. ...

Cashless tolling is increasingly popular.Â* The 407 motorway near
Toronto has always been cashless.Â* If you travel frequently you can
rent a transponder, otherwise they photograph your license tag and
send you a bill.Â* If you travel semi-frequently as I do, you can
register on their web site and they'll e-mail you the bill, slightly
cheaper than a paper bill.Â* If you're in an HGV you must have a
transponder, presumably with a large fine issued otherwise.

Some of the toll barriers on the New York Thruway, some bridges in New
York City, and the Pennsylvania Turnpike have been turned into
gantries, more or less the same deal, and the Thruway is planning to
go totally cashless in a year or so, saying that the vast majority of
users already use transponders.Â* The roads are all well signed with
LAST EXIT BEFORE TOLL and the like so you have little excuse to be
surprised.

It does help that most of the toll agencies in the northeastern US
belong to the E-ZPass consortium so if you have a transponder from any
of them, it works on all of them.Â* The 407's transponders are
technically compatible but for some reason they don't belong.Â* (It's
not because they're in Canada, since the Niagara River bridges are
all E-ZPass.)

and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls?


IMLE in Sydney a few years ago very easily, by following the very clear
instructions on the website. And car hire companies warn customers
about the tolls.

PS

I forgot to mention that the Dart Charge can also be paid in any of the
many shops which are part of the Payzone network. So those not able or
willing to pay online, by phone or by post in advance can make a small
detour to one of the many either side of the crossing, or near the
Dover ferry terminal, or...

And if they don't know that then can ask for help.

And if they can't do that then I begin to doubt if they are safe to drive.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 15/12/2018 10:45, tim... wrote:


"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 14/12/2018 17:55, tim... wrote:


"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 14/12/2018 16:10, tim... wrote:


wrote in message
news On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
"tim..." wrote:
wrote in message
news On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
14:33:09 on
Mon, 10 Dec 2018, Billy No Mates Billy No

remarked:

Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small
number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month),
and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that
people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but
rare
visitors weren't impeded.

The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming
everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free
trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time
rail fares
at the off-peak rate.

The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in
order to
extract
fines from those who don't.

ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy

I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the
traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through
or heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will
simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or
contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues
anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the
real bottleneck.

I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.

Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into
the correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the
junction joining only a few 100 yards before the tunnel

I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service
areas on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.

You can pay by phone so would this be for those who don't have a
mobile phone or those who want to pay in cash?

It'll be for those who don't know the number to phone because they
didn't have time to take it down as they drove past (if it's even
there - I forget)


I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on
the M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to
get it, if only from a passing member of the public.

And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

Presumably rental companies have a way to provide this

Well I suppose they'll provide the website if you don't know it already.
It's the one I gave you a link for where it states "you can set up an
electronic pass before you leave home or up to three days after you
travel on a toll road".

It's not like I'm going to roll up in my UK registered car, is it?

How do I know? I've seen UK registered cars in use in Aus.

Unlike in Portugal, where I have a map that shows some motorways as
having traditional "pay at kiosk" tolls and others as toll-free

Unfortunately, the latter have now been changed to e-tolls.Â* And where
does a foreigner get the e-toll card, you might ask?Â* At the border as
they enter the country on one of these roads.

If you enter the country some other way and happen across one of these
e-till roads later, you are ****ed

It's nonsense like this that is just asking for the EU to impose common
standards, but they can't be bothered





--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 15/12/2018 10:34, Robin9 wrote:
;168262 Wrote:

Widening and straightening the west bore of the Blackwall tunnel and
replacing
some of the traffics lights on the A12 with under/overpasses would
probably
cost a fraction of the price and significantly improve the northbound
flow
across the river.

Absolutely! I could not agree more.




And what would you do during the works? The Blackwall tunnel approaches
can be a nightmare anytime of the day and night at the moment, having
that permanently for months or years is really not a brilliant idea.

"tim..." wrote:

and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls?

Toll company bills rental car company, rental car company charges card used for
rental. At least in my experience. The layers of administrative surcharges make
that an expensive option. Unfortunately, I think the transponder rules prohibit
moving from car to car.