In message , at 14:55:08 on Sat, 15 Dec
2018, tim... remarked:


"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 10:50:11 on Sat, 15 Dec
2018, tim... remarked:

the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice.
I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post
(even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for).

I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where
arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are
either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have a
system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the
finance department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough.

surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution, they
can set up an online account that does all this

Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which appear
to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a school
(even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online account for
even the Head's car, should he have some official business the other
side of the river. How would that account not end up also paying for
his leisure trips, for example? The postal payment, however, could be
ringfenced for just one trip.

you haven't thought that through, have you

If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through the
tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these journey

Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge get
levied against when the car passes through.

so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go
through that account anyway

telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay his
weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for
institutional purposes isn't going go down too well

What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior
members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll
personally because there's no such thing as a petty cash account.

BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no connection
to the post pay option

The postal option is pre-pay too.

(and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg)

The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector
organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures'; and
it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders.

This sometimes requires imaginative solutions and one might be to get
two signatures on a cheque and send that the Dart postal service.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Robin wrote:
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.

Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff around
with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just
handing over 2 quid, done, drive off...

And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.

https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/sydney-mo...ges/index.html

Who cares what the skippys do.

On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 17:49:25 +0000
John Williamson wrote:
On 14/12/2018 16:43, wrote:
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 16:10:59 -0000
"tim..." wrote:
I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.

There'd be a bit more queuing , but I doubt it would make a huge amount of
difference. The regular users would still sail through the non toll sections.


You'd need barriers on the non-paying lanes to stop people who need to
pay trying to get through the "free" lanes. Then you will get people
reversing into the oncoming queue to get to a pay booth.

Huh? People would be perfectly free to choose the free lanes if they want,
why would you need barriers between them and the voluntary pay by cash gates?

"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 15/12/2018 14:58, tim... wrote:


"Robin" wrote in message
...


Presumably rental companies have a way to provide this

Well I suppose they'll provide the website if you don't know it already.
It's the one I gave you a link for where it states "you can set up an
electronic pass before you leave home or up to three days after you
travel on a toll road".

I assume that rental companies supply cars with the tags in place

surely most users are going to want this?

I assume you either did not read

I read it

or did not understand my post which included "you can set up an electronic
pass before you leave home

not much use for someone whose home is a different country

or up to three days after you travel on a toll road".

How convenient is this going to be when you are on the road staying in a
different Motel each night?

And did not bother to go to the Sydney site.

and I did this

But I'll try just one last time:

a. the cars don't come with tags: that'd mean the rental companies had to
allocate the tolls to hirers and collect the money, with scope for
arguments about the quantum, and so even more admin costs - costs they'd
pass on just like you don't want

yes I know

but my point is that surely they do this, for those people for which getting
a pass is too inconvenient (I.e. almost every foreign visitor, which In a
country like Oz is going to be a large percentage of renters)

That there is an annoying need for the rental companies to administer the
charges incurred during the rental period, is the part of the solution that
should have been engineered out by the implementation.

Foreigners driving rental cars is likely to be a non negligible part of the
usage. A user friendly solution should have been engineered in.


b. it's down to the renter to register and pay

if "setting up an electronic pass" simply means registering a credit card
against a reg number, then that's a pretty poor choice of language, IMHO.

the term electronic pass implies to me that a piece of hardware is involved.

(and the fact that there is information on the website about having to put
your own pass in a shielded bag if you get a rental car with a pass confirms
that a piece of hardware IS involved)

c. only if the renter doesn't pay does the rental company get involved.

But how does the casual renter pay?

tim

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 14:55:08 on Sat, 15 Dec 2018,
tim... remarked:


"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 10:50:11 on Sat, 15 Dec
2018, tim... remarked:

the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice. I'd
characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post (even if
it's only a one-trip season being paid for).

I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where arrangements
for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are either
non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have a system
for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the finance
department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough.

surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution, they can
set up an online account that does all this

Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which appear to
them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a school (even one
in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online account for even the
Head's car, should he have some official business the other side of the
river. How would that account not end up also paying for his leisure
trips, for example? The postal payment, however, could be ringfenced for
just one trip.

you haven't thought that through, have you

If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through the
tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these journey

Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge get
levied against when the car passes through.

I have no idea what happens if you try this

And I have no intention of finding out.

so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go
through that account anyway

telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay his
weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for
institutional purposes isn't going go down too well

What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior
members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll personally
because there's no such thing as a petty cash account.

so how are they going to get back the 25 miles at 40ppm then?

surely whatever solution is used for that can be used for the toll.

BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no connection to
the post pay option

The postal option is pre-pay too.

but as I understand you, only for a specific journey.

the pre pay account is just a store of money for any future journey

(and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg)

The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector
organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures'; and
it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders.

so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the online
account

tim

wrote in message
news
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Robin wrote:
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.

Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff
around
with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just
handing over 2 quid, done, drive off...

And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.

the French peage are routinely almost empty. The same cannot be said of the
Dartford Toll

"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 15/12/2018 15:37, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 15/12/2018 14:46, tim... wrote:


"Arthur Conan Doyle" wrote in message
news:nr1a1e1g4aqi3avoqad0k43dv3o0ii3cdd@None...
"tim..." wrote:

and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls?

Toll company bills rental car company, rental car company charges card
used for
rental. At least in my experience. The layers of administrative
surcharges make
that an expensive option.

precisely!

precisely wrong: if you heed the warnings and register in advance or
within 3 days and pay the tolls there's no surcharge etc whatsoever.

ITYF we have moved on here to some US Toll road.

tim

On 16/12/2018 14:30, tim... wrote:


wrote in message
news
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Robin wrote:
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.

Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff
around
with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just
handing over 2 quid, done, drive off...

And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the
barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.

the French peage are routinely almost empty.


You've not tried driving down one while the Tour de France was in the area!


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 15/12/2018 16:48, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
Sigh. And of course after I posted I realized this was a UK group. Never
mind.



But one currently discussing the Sydney[1] toll roads


[1] FTAOD Sydney, Australia - not Nova Scotia



we're just using examples around the world in order to establish a best
practice solution to this problem

So far. I've yet to see one

All of them seem to think that foreigners (whether driving their own car or
a rental) are ripe to be ripped off and require no consideration.

tim

"John Levine" wrote in message
news
In article nr1a1e1g4aqi3avoqad0k43dv3o0ii3cdd@None,
Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
"tim..." wrote:

and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls?

Toll company bills rental car company, rental car company charges card
used for
rental. At least in my experience. The layers of administrative surcharges
make
that an expensive option.

That's fairly typical.

Unfortunately, I think the transponder rules prohibit moving from car to
car.

Not in the US. Most US toll transponders can be used in any car, so I
have a spare e-zpass that I use in the northeast and a Sunpass I use
in Florida.

I must not be the only one, since I bought a gizmo on Amazon that clips
onto
the e-zpass and has a suction cup to stick to the windshield. (The
regular
attachment is adhesive velcro strips.)

Failing that, many cashless tolls have a web site where you can pay by
license tag number within a few days.

For the toll roads, even if some of the tolls go unpaid, the vast
savings in not having staff at the tolls and not having to handle cash
more than covers it.

though the important point about rental cars (rather than out of Staters who
just go home and ignore postal demands to pay) is that the tolls don't go
unpaid

But the renter risks gets ripped off as the toll is paid

tim