On 30/05/2019 15:41, Roland Perry wrote:


JNugent remarked:

Â*The turnover for someone like Uber or TheTrainline being the
commissionÂ* element, not including the money that passes straight
through to theÂ* drivers and Train Companies respectively.

If Uber only received a commission or circuit fee from the driver,
that would be correct and I would certainly not argue with your
proposition.

But how can that correct be in the circumstance where they also turn
over the whole of the fare collected from the passenger
(account-holder) on the spot?

Do they, and send the driver an invoice for their commission later (end
of the month perhaps)?

I assume your "Do they..." was a request for confirmation of what I said.

Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare.

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

That would nudge them a bit closer to being perceived by the passenger
as a cab company, rather than a booking agent for the driver.

The passenger's view isn't important anyway, but even so, it's hard to
see how "knowing" that Uber issue invoices to drivers [if that were the
case, for which there is no evidence] would affect passengers' opinion
of Uber.

I don't think credit card companies include the total value of
thingsÂ* purchased with their cards in their turnover. But they do
collect theÂ* money from buyers, deduct a commission, they pay the
balance to
vendors. And like no doubt Uber, they don't pay the whole amount
outÂ* andÂ* then send an invoice asking for the commission back
whenever theÂ* traderÂ* feels like it.

I don't now about you, but I pay money to my credit card issuers.
Â*That's what I wrote. They collect the money you pay to them, and
channelÂ* it through to the merchants.

They don't pay money to me.

Â*I didn't suggest they did. They pay money to merchants. But that's
moneyÂ* from you to the merchant, and isn't part of the card issuer's
turnover.

Indeed. They are financial trading entities operating as registered /
recognised banks licenced by the state. They lend money (part of their
capital assets) and only the fees and charges they receive are their
turnover.

They lend money to the buyer (at zero interest rate if they pay it off
on demand). They don't lend money to the merchant.

Does that apply to Uber?

And TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket
straight away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with them
all. Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published accounts is
just the commission/fee element.

But they are not Uber. And Uber are going to have to argue that the
money they turn over is not part of their turnover.

Just to be clear about this: if an individual self-employed taxi-driver
(or private hire driver) turned over £85,000 and were honest enough to
report the fact, they would be forced by law to register for VAT and to
charge it on top of the fare.

But turning over £1808 a week (assuming five weeks' non-activity per
annum) would be a tall order. Not so for Uber.

JNugent wrote:
On 30/05/2019 15:41, Roland Perry wrote:


JNugent remarked:

Â*The turnover for someone like Uber or TheTrainline being the
commissionÂ* element, not including the money that passes straight
through to theÂ* drivers and Train Companies respectively.

If Uber only received a commission or circuit fee from the driver,
that would be correct and I would certainly not argue with your
proposition.

But how can that correct be in the circumstance where they also turn
over the whole of the fare collected from the passenger
(account-holder) on the spot?

Do they, and send the driver an invoice for their commission later (end
of the month perhaps)?

I assume your "Do they..." was a request for confirmation of what I said.

Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare.

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle,
Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money,
after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday.

https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/


That would nudge them a bit closer to being perceived by the passenger
as a cab company, rather than a booking agent for the driver.

The passenger's view isn't important anyway, but even so, it's hard to
see how "knowing" that Uber issue invoices to drivers [if that were the
case, for which there is no evidence] would affect passengers' opinion
of Uber.

I don't think credit card companies include the total value of
thingsÂ* purchased with their cards in their turnover. But they do
collect theÂ* money from buyers, deduct a commission, they pay the
balance to
vendors. And like no doubt Uber, they don't pay the whole amount
outÂ* andÂ* then send an invoice asking for the commission back
whenever theÂ* traderÂ* feels like it.

I don't now about you, but I pay money to my credit card issuers.
Â*That's what I wrote. They collect the money you pay to them, and
channelÂ* it through to the merchants.

They don't pay money to me.

Â*I didn't suggest they did. They pay money to merchants. But that's
moneyÂ* from you to the merchant, and isn't part of the card issuer's
turnover.

Indeed. They are financial trading entities operating as registered /
recognised banks licenced by the state. They lend money (part of their
capital assets) and only the fees and charges they receive are their
turnover.

They lend money to the buyer (at zero interest rate if they pay it off
on demand). They don't lend money to the merchant.

Does that apply to Uber?

And TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket
straight away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with them
all. Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published accounts is
just the commission/fee element.

But they are not Uber. And Uber are going to have to argue that the
money they turn over is not part of their turnover.

Just to be clear about this: if an individual self-employed taxi-driver
(or private hire driver) turned over £85,000 and were honest enough to
report the fact, they would be forced by law to register for VAT and to
charge it on top of the fare.

But turning over £1808 a week (assuming five weeks' non-activity per
annum) would be a tall order. Not so for Uber.

On 2019-05-30, Recliner wrote:

Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare.

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle,
Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money,
after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday.

https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/


Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal?

Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal.
https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101

I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to
collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you
collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of
whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in
mine.

On 2019-05-30, Tim Woodall wrote:
On 2019-05-30, Recliner wrote:

Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare.

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle,
Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money,
after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday.

https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/


Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal?

Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal.
https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101

I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to
collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you
collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of
whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in
mine.


https://thevatconsultancy.com/med-ho...supreme-court/

Went all the way to the supreme court - and was reversed at each stage!

Tim Woodall wrote:
On 2019-05-30, Recliner wrote:

Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare.

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle,
Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money,
after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday.

https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/


Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal?

Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal.
https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101

I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to
collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you
collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of
whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in
mine.

Which would confirm Uber's interpretation, meaning that it doesn't need to
pay VAT, or if it does, only on its net amount, around 22% of the gross
billings.

Uber certainly books and reports 'Gross billings' and 'Revenue', where the
latter is its net take after paying the drivers.

In message , at 16:43:29 on Thu, 30
May 2019, JNugent remarked:
On 30/05/2019 15:41, Roland Perry wrote:


JNugent remarked:

*The turnover for someone like Uber or TheTrainline being the
commission* element, not including the money that passes straight
through to the* drivers and Train Companies respectively.

If Uber only received a commission or circuit fee from the driver,
that would be correct and I would certainly not argue with your
proposition.

But how can that correct be in the circumstance where they also turn
over the whole of the fare collected from the passenger
(account-holder) on the spot?
Do they, and send the driver an invoice for their commission later
(end of the month perhaps)?

I assume your "Do they..." was a request for confirmation of what I said.

I was asking for confirmation that they "turn over the whole fare
collected from the passenger, on the spot".

There's two aspects:

The whole fare, and
On the spot.

Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare.

No-one ever claimed otherwise. It's what they do after collecting it
which matters.

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

Therefore you are now agreeing with my proposition that they pay the
driver only part of what they collected from the passenger. Having
deducted their commission.

Whether they pay it "on the spot", or perhaps 'at the end of the week'
or whatever, is peripheral to that particular aspect.

That would nudge them a bit closer to being perceived by the
passenger as a cab company, rather than a booking agent for the driver.

The passenger's view isn't important anyway, but even so, it's hard to
see how "knowing" that Uber issue invoices to drivers [if that were the
case, for which there is no evidence] would affect passengers' opinion
of Uber.

There are two models possible:

Passenger pays for the ride and the whole fare is collected by Uber
and sent to the driver (with Uber being in effect just a form of
merchant services dealing with the card payment). Later, Uber sends a
bill to the driver for his usage of their booking/billing platform.

Or,

Passenger pays Uber for the ride, and they send him (maybe
immediately, maybe later) a piecework payment for having done the
driving aspect.

The perceptual difference being whether the passenger has just
patronised a self-employed driver, or a multi-billion cab company.

TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket straight
away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with them all.
Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published accounts is
just the commission/fee element.

But they are not Uber. And Uber are going to have to argue that the
money they turn over is not part of their turnover.

The two business models are very similar.

Just to be clear about this: if an individual self-employed taxi-driver
(or private hire driver) turned over £85,000 and were honest enough to
report the fact, they would be forced by law to register for VAT and to
charge it on top of the fare.

But turning over £1808 a week (assuming five weeks' non-activity per
annum) would be a tall order. Not so for Uber.

Yes, I think we all understand why the £85k is important.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 16:01:55 on Thu, 30 May
2019, Recliner remarked:

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle,
Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money,
after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday.

https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/

Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected.
--
Roland Perry

In messge k, at
16:26:38 on Thu, 30 May 2019, Tim Woodall
remarked:
Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal?

Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal.
https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...gents-20160101

That's saying MedHotels wasn't acting simply as a conduit for
orders/money but was doing much more, being a self-contained
holiday-business with payments to hotels being imply one of its
overheads.

I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to
collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you
collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of
whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in
mine.

Yes, TheTrainline is acting as agent for the TOCs, and their turnover is
only the 10% [well, 8% actually].

TheTrainline isn't a tour operator, in the sense of buying lots of
London-Manchester Open Returns off Virgin, and then hoping customers
will turn up and buy them. It's just a real-time conduit for orders.

Similarly, Uber doesn't pre-buy driver-hours (or driver-miles) from the
cabbies, and then hope it can sell them. It's just a real-time conduit
for orders.

--
Roland Perry

In message , at 08:24:24 on Fri, 31 May 2019,
Roland Perry remarked:
In messge k, at
16:26:38 on Thu, 30 May 2019, Tim Woodall
remarked:
Doesn't this hinge on whether uber are agent or principal?

Here's a related case that went all the way to the court of appeal.
https://www.kwm.com/en/uk/knowledge/...-agent-the-deb
ate-over-online-travel-agents-20160101

That's saying MedHotels wasn't acting simply as a conduit for
orders/money but was doing much more, being a self-contained
holiday-business with payments to hotels being imply

simply

one of its overheads.

I don't think the billing matters. If I appoint you as my agent to
collect monies due to me and agree to pay you 10% of whatever you
collect then your turnover is the 10% and mine is 100% regardless of
whether, and how, the 10% ends up in my account and the 90% ends up in
mine.

Yes, TheTrainline is acting as agent for the TOCs, and their turnover
is only the 10% [well, 8% actually].

TheTrainline isn't a tour operator, in the sense of buying lots of
London-Manchester Open Returns off Virgin, and then hoping customers
will turn up and buy them. It's just a real-time conduit for orders.

Similarly, Uber doesn't pre-buy driver-hours (or driver-miles) from the
cabbies, and then hope it can sell them. It's just a real-time conduit
for orders.


--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:01:55 on Thu, 30 May
2019, Recliner remarked:

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle,
Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money,
after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday.

https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/how-do-uber-drivers-get-paid-and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/

Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected.

One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays drivers
for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when empty. So
if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added
to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to return
home empty, they have to pay the fare out of their own pocket. So that is
like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee.